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We Who Thirst
Delve into the captivating tales of women from the Bible, exploring their lives within ancient cultures and historical contexts. These narratives reveal not only their stories but also the profound love and beauty of the God we worship.
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We Who Thirst
009 Interview Becky Castle Miller: Anxiety, Worry, Trauma, and Emotions in Scripture
What if understanding Jesus' emotions could transform your spiritual life? Join us as we welcome Becky Castle Miller, who shares her remarkable journey of navigating emotional health struggles and how they led her to explore the intersection of emotions and discipleship in Christianity. Becky's profound insights, particularly through the Gospel of Luke, reveal how studying the emotions of Christ has been spiritually transformative for her, offering a new lens of Christ-like compassion and reaffirming faith during times of personal trauma.
Discover a biblical perspective on anxiety as we unpack the story of Martha in the New Testament. We delve into the translation nuances of "merimnao," traditionally understood as anxiety, and discuss its implications in light of modern mental health challenges. This conversation invites a shift from fear to confidence, focusing on faith and past provisions. Becky's dissertation work sheds light on the emotional constructs within the scriptures, with female disciples like Martha offering profound theological insights that continue to resonate today.
Finally, we tackle the misconceptions surrounding mental illness, highlighting the necessity of a holistic approach to healing that integrates the mind, body, and spirit. Becky emphasizes the importance of trauma-informed church communities and shares valuable resources to create nurturing spaces for healing and personal growth. Through an engaging discussion on emotional coaching, Becky offers her methods and philosophies, providing listeners with tools to foster environments of compassion and understanding. Don't miss this chance to gain valuable insights from Becky and enrich your understanding of emotions and discipleship.
Follow Becky online @wholeemotion or subscribe to her substack!
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Welcome back to the we who Thirst podcast. Today I have with me Becky Castle-Miller. Her work focuses on new ways to understand and embrace our God-given emotions as disciples, while viewing Jesus as our model for living an emotionally vibrant life. Becky did her master's at Northern Seminary and is currently working on her PhD at Wheaton. Her dissertation is about emotions and discipleship in the Gospel of Luke, which I find absolutely fascinating. So welcome Becky, it is so good to have you here. I am really curious what made you interested in emotions and the Bible as a topic?
Becky Castle Miller:You know a lot of people say that our research questions so often come out of our own personal questions. You know some people will pick a dissertation based on just what needs to be studied and don't really care. But a lot of researchers are really driven by their own personal questions, and that's certainly the case for me, I have. I grew up as a Christian, you know, trying to be a disciple of Jesus, but also learned some really unhealthy lessons about emotions in the Christian subcultures that I was in, and so as I became a young adult, I just really struggled with my emotions and kept trying to shut them down and thought there wasn't room for trusting emotion in the Christian life, or any emotions other than joy. And so when I was in my mid twenties, I had a real emotional breakdown, started therapy and really started digging into mental health, emotional health, abuse, trauma, all those things.
Becky Castle Miller:And then what does the Bible say about these topics? Awesome, that's fantastic. When I was in my late twenties, early thirties, my family lived in the Netherlands for eight years and we were at an international church there, and really one thing I loved about the church was the focus on studying Jesus as our example. Looking at what does. What example does Jesus set for our emotions in the gospels? I started trying to write a book about that and realized I did not have the research skills to do that.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yes.
Becky Castle Miller:And I was also feeling drawn to more discipleship and pastoral ministry. So I decided to go to seminary pastor's thesis on emotions in the gospels, particularly Jesus's emotions. Got to the end of seminary and realized I actually really like the academic study of the Bible and feel drawn in that direction and I still have questions. So I started at Wheaton College two years ago with Issa Macaulay and continuing this look at emotions in the gospels. But a dissertation has to be a very narrow focus. So I'm focusing on the Gospel of Luke and focusing on how Jesus shapes the emotions of his followers, not just how he expresses emotion himself. So really it was my own lack of emotional health looking at what does the Bible say and then beginning to research that on an academic level that drove me into the work that I'm doing now.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I love that. And what payoff have you seen in your own life and ministry from that work? Wow?
Becky Castle Miller:You know, I don't think that there are a lot of PhD programs that are character forming. Well, your PhD forms your character in many ways.
Jessica LM Jenkins:It will.
Becky Castle Miller:Yes, but just the discipline of doing it will shape you. But there is something special about getting to be a gospel scholar. Essentially, getting to be a Jesus scholar like getting a PhD in Jesus is something really special, and there are people who do that from a secular perspective. But getting to do that as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus, wanting to follow him in my personal life and wanting to learn about him in my academic life at a Christian institution with real Christian scholars leading me and guiding me, that's awesome. It's been an incredibly spiritually formative experience. It has shaped my character in deep, deep ways, and one way I've seen that truly come out is I spent the spring semester doing some guided research and extra coursework on trauma and emotion.
Becky Castle Miller:Yes, really focused on compassion, as Jesus teaches compassion in the gospels. Jesus teaches compassion by the way he models it, like he has moved with compassion. He teaches his disciples through parables and direct teaching to be compassionate. He teaches compassion as the proper Christian response to seeing people dealing with trauma. Yeah, and so like being embedded in what it means to to show compassion, to be moved with compassion, to move to take action on behalf of someone in a vulnerable situation, like that's what that does.
Becky Castle Miller:Yeah, this summer I went through a personally really traumatic experience and what came out of me in that was deep compassion and it was incredible to look back and see how God had the mercy to prepare my character for what was coming, when I didn't even know, like I thought I was just writing a book. But it deeply formed me and so it reinforced to me my theory when we study Jesus's emotions and we study his teaching on emotion and we let the Holy Spirit transform our character when we have situations in life, those Jesus led emotions are what our minds are going to construct and I I deeply believe that truth. I had theorized it before. Yeah, I have seen it in my life. As I let the Holy Spirit form my character, the emotions I was able to construct changed and it created a Christ-like character in me.
Becky Castle Miller:In the face of difficulty and I was talking with my advisor about that he said you know, sometimes we do go through crisis and what we see as a result is, oh, maybe I really am a Christian. No, I think we can doubt our faith and the realness of our faith in the everyday humdrum life and then, when pressed, all of a sudden, we can see Christ-likeness coming out of us when it humanly shouldn't, when we shouldn't be able to right. When we see Christ-likeness coming out of us when it humanly shouldn't, when we shouldn't be able to right, when we see Christ's character truly formed in us. Yeah, it is so encouraging and so Beautiful. Yeah, I am deeply humbled by the gift God has given me by allowing me to do this work. That is amazing.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I just love that you are doing this work and have a voice in this space. The idea of emotions in the Bible and trauma and theology have been areas I've wanted to study, so I was really excited to have you on the podcast. And in the past I don't even know if you even remember this, but you sent me some papers a while back that you wrote. I've been really enjoying reading those. So I'm just so excited today to pick your brain on all of this as well as hear what God has been doing in your life. Typically on the podcast we talk about women of the Bible, so I always ask those I'm interviewing who is your favorite woman of the Bible and does she relate to your area of study?
Becky Castle Miller:You know, I would say, one of my favorites is Martha of Bethany, oh me too, Yay, I love Martha and I wrote my seminary entrance paper on Martha Awesome.
Becky Castle Miller:We had to write a short New Testament studies paper as part of our seminary application and I wanted to write on Martha and it's funny looking back now. I was in the Netherlands without a lot of access to English language resources, so I was trying to use online resources and, you know, did not even know like what were quality academic resources to try to write this kind of paper. Fair, but I put it together and the study I did of Martha really sparked my interest to see her as a disciple. Truly, she knew Jesus. So, getting to study Martha and realize she was a real disciple of Jesus, she was, um, uh, perhaps a deacon, one who served. She was probably busy in local ministry.
Becky Castle Miller:We see her again, um, serving at a dinner later. Uh, and she is serving, like she continues to serve and not just in like a typical well, women should cook the meals but like probably a formal ministry role and she she really has a friendship with jesus. She has, uh, this confrontation with jesus when her brother dies, um, and I just love the friendship and the boldness she has with Jesus. So she's always been a fascinating character to me when we were in the Netherlands, I did like a first person monologue as Martha that I performed at a women's conference and just really got into that character.
Becky Castle Miller:So yeah, it turns out I am actually going to be focusing on her in a chapter of my dissertation. Awesome, because when Jesus tells her Martha, martha, you are worried and distracted by many things. That word worry is a word that I've started to do a lot of research on, and so I think the construction of worry and anxiousness and what that actually means in the New Testament is going to be a key chapter in my dissertation. So I'm looking forward to digging into Martha and her emotions more.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's awesome. I just love Martha and that moment you mentioned where she and Jesus have that confrontation. That's one of my favorite moments in the Bible. I just love how she holds nothing back, she just lets him have it, but also comes out with these really profound theological truths. I find, as I read the Gospels, the women, female disciples, are some of the most astute theologians before Pentecost throughout the entire Gospels, and so I really love Martha's piece of that.
Becky Castle Miller:Yeah, and Martha and Peter are the only two who truly know who Jesus is and name him.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yes, and I love that a woman is one of those people, absolutely so. You were talking about worry and anxiety, which is absolutely perfect, because I asked our listeners what questions they had for you and several of the questions were on that topic Exactly so. Does anxiety equal worry and is it a?
Becky Castle Miller:sin. That is such a good question and there's so much bad teaching around this. I did a big term paper in my first year of course work on do not be anxious in Philippians, in Philippians 2., and I've also preached a sermon on that, and I've also preached on kind of a similar teaching in first Peter about cast your cares, cast your anxieties on him, and I think that that is going to be a word that I focus on or an emotion concept that I focus on in my dissertation. And so worry, this word merimnao, I think anxiety is a bad translation of it, given our current American medicalized understanding of anxiety. Right Like right now, the word anxiety tends to mean an anxiety disorder. We're talking about a medical condition and so I think when we say don't be anxious, a lot of people hear that in our cultural context Exactly, and here it's sinful to have an anxiety disorder. Right, and that's just not what the Bible is saying. Yes, so I think better translations might be. Worry, perhaps, but also something else In Scott McKnight's the second Testament, which is his new new Testament translation, he says do not be disturbed.
Becky Castle Miller:Okay, um, which I like and Scott and I have talked a lot of. He was my seminary professor. We've talked a lot about emotions in scripture. I've been working with him on a 16 volume, uh, new Testament commentary series, the everyday Bible study series, and so as emotions have come up in that, like we've discussed those Um and so he thinks maybe do not, do not be disturbed, is a good translation.
Becky Castle Miller:And I've looked at the lexicons, um, I think perhaps do not be unduly concerned might be a better translation yeah, because I think it has degrees of concern and and focus and prioritization, and maybe rumination, like do not discriminate on these things that you're so worried about. Um, I don't think it means don't worry ever. I don't think it means worry is a sin. I don't think it means anxiety disorders are a sin. I don't think it means being anxious is a sin. Right, it's a reassurance. Yes, uh, and I'm. It's the same word used in when Jesus is talking to Martha, that Paul uses in Philippians, that Jesus uses in the sermon on the Mount, Right? You know, do not worry about what you're going to eat, what you're going to wear, right? Same word. And so I think it has to do with, like, a lack of trust in God's provision, rumination on things that we cannot control, a rumination on things that are negative. Mm-hmm, because some of the newer neuroscientific research on emotion does show that what we focus on is what we will construct. Yes, so there is something to. If you rehearse uncomfortable emotions, you're reinforcing those neural pathways and so when an event happens, you're going to be more likely to construct an uncomfortable emotion than to construct a comfortable emotion, right? So there is something to be said about what we focus on and what we ruminate on. And so when we can shift our faith and our focus onto God has provided for me in the past, god will provide for me in the future. I trust God and I trust God's people to care for me. Like a lot of the Philippians, context is God's people's concern for each other. Right, context is God's people's concern for each other.
Becky Castle Miller:Paul uses that word early in Philippians to talk about Timothy's appropriate concern or worry for people and like he's lauded for that. So it can't be a bad word. Right, it's praise for having the same emotion. Right, and it's like do not be anxious but by prayer and supplication make your request known to God.
Becky Castle Miller:So I think it's a degree, it's a focus, it's a priority and it's like focus on your hope and faith as you're forward looking, because anxiety is looking to the future with fear and and hope and faith are looking to the future with confidence. And so when we're confident in God's provision and we're rehearsing the ways God has provided for us in the past and we're embedded in God's people, knowing that we're going to care for each other and our needs will be met, like we don't need to ruminate on what we don't have but we can make our priority the kingdom of God and focus on moving forward in faith and trusting that God's going to care for us. So that's kind of my understanding right now, and I'm curious to see how this is all going to work out in my dissertation.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Well, I can't wait to hear about that. I've done a lot of thinking about anxiety in the last several years as well, just as I've become more trauma informed my background.
Becky Castle Miller:I have not well.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I took a biblical counseling class in seminary, which was not a good class. Professor bragged about emotionally abusing his clients in class.
Becky Castle Miller:Yeah, yeah, big concerns about Newthetic counseling, now kind of rebranded as biblical counseling. Not that the Bible can't be wise counsel for us, but that the approach of quote unquote biblical counseling can be pretty unhealthy. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And there's a lot of emotional bypassing. But I never thought I had anxiety for years, because I'm not a worrier, I'm not a ruminator, I don't construct the emotion that way. But I've realized that there's a lot of anxiety that I carry in my body and so learning that difference and for our listeners, I felt that very strongly just today the difference between rumination anxiety and a physical experience. My daughter got a couple teeth pulled this morning and so we're at the dentist and I trust them. Great team, it's mentally I'm totally fine from like here up. We're all good, everything's under control. I get out to the waiting room after she's under anesthesia and I realized my whole body, physiologically, is anxious. I can't focus on the book I brought to read, I can't even crochet. I'm feeling agitated, even though mentally I'm not ruminating. And so that mind body connection, learning to bridge those together and be aware of the differences, can be really helpful.
Becky Castle Miller:Right, and and I don't think, if you catch yourself doing that, that you're like need to say oh, oh, no, I'm in sin Cause I'm being anxious. No, I think it's a, I think it's an offer of love from God, not a like condemning command. It's like hey, I just want to remind you, just like we would a child. If our child is afraid, we can say I want to remind you, I am here, you are safe, I am with you, I am going to take care of you. And I think that's what do not be anxious or don't worry means in scripture. It's like hey, I think that's what.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Do not be anxious or don't worry means in scripture it's like hey, I've got you Kind of like the scooping up. You would have a little kid Like don't be afraid.
Becky Castle Miller:It's okay. It's like co-regulation from God. Oh, I love that. Let me calm your breathing with my own breathing. Let me calm your body with my body. Let me be the calming, empathetic presence that you need right now. I've got you.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's why you don't need to worry, not that you're bad for worry, right, and then our emotions can be reconstructed according to that co-regulation with God, rather than a spiritual bypassing or emotional bypassing, which is what I often did to my own self, like, oh, I'm just not going to think about it. I moved any worry, rumination, anxiety into my body because ruminating is sin. So therefore I'm just going to carry it all in my that as I think about the co-regulation with God aspect. There's a lot of people who have abuse in their past, trauma in their past, especially with caregiver parents. They have spiritual abuse in their past. So for them that co-regulation with God is really hard because they have a hard time trusting people in general but have trouble relating to God that way. What hope would you offer for them?
Becky Castle Miller:That is so hard to see God as a loving parent when you have not had a loving parent modeled for you. Yeah, absolutely I. Just an acknowledgement of that is the first step and maybe then God as parent isn't a safe metaphor for you. But, like you know, the scripture is full of metaphors for us. Oh yeah, so many, and we were not limited to God as parent. So that triggering for someone, uh, that's fine. Like there's other metaphors for understanding God. God our savior, god, our deliverer, god, our justice bringer, um, our friend God, our friend Jesus, our friends. Like there's so many more ways we can think of God. So, so we're not bound to that. If that's triggering, um it.
Becky Castle Miller:It helps if you have a friend who is a safe person, who's good at helping you regulate yourself, and then see how God can be that way. If you have safe people, like I understand that that's a hard thing to grasp. If we don't have safe people on our level, it is hard to imagine God being safe. Yeah, hard to imagine God being safe, yeah, especially when we have been abused in God's name, yes, by spiritual leaders, or we've had the Bible weaponized against us. It is hard to find safety in scripture and spiritual leaders. So, yeah, I just acknowledge how difficult that is. Yeah, so so, learning to receive compassion from God Maybe it's the first time in your life that you've trusted a being to be compassionate and good to you. It is learning that for the first time and trusting that God is good and God is safe.
Becky Castle Miller:I definitely am a huge fan of licensed therapy, absolutely. You know, when we are carrying trauma in our bodies and in our stories, it is hard to access God's love. A few years ago, when I was diagnosed with complex post-traumatic stress disorder and one way that manifested was really having a hard time accepting love from God and believing I was good enough for God, yeah, um, and as I did trauma therapy using EMDR, uh, internal family systems. As to the key modalities with my trauma therapist, um, as I healed, I became open to receiving love from God in a new way and feeling God's compassion and care for me and learning to have compassion and love and care for myself. So a good trauma therapist can be a really important part of spiritual healing because sometimes it is our trauma that blocks our our access to receiving that love from God.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And I think often our our relationship with God and this wasn't taught me. I came from a very intellectualized everything tradition but our relationship with God is a whole body experience, it's not just our mind. And just to further your plug for trauma-informed counseling and therapy they can help with that mind-body integration. And I know for the trauma in my family that we have EMDR internal family systems. Those things have been huge in our home as well. So if you're listening and you're like, should I get I don't know look for, if you have trauma in your past, trauma-informed therapy that can use EMDR internal family systems, a lot of these things could potentially I'm not going to promise but be so helpful for you and I think both Becky and I would love to see you access those healing resources that.
Jessica LM Jenkins:God has provided through his grace for us.
Becky Castle Miller:Absolutely. And somatic experiencing is another good trauma healing modality that really works with your body yeah, helps you engage your body and deal with the trauma that's stored in your body. So somatic experiencing is really good. Accelerated resolution therapy ART I experienced that in one session this summer. It was incredible Like I felt like I had like a decrease in my reactivity from like a nine, like on a scale of 10, like from a nine down to like a six and like one session like several sessions to get there.
Becky Castle Miller:So ART is a is a cool trauma healing modality. Yeah, and I had the privilege of being in a master's level counseling class at Wheaton College in the spring semester and it was the intro to trauma counseling class and so getting to see these future Christian counselors and the incredible top notch research training and counseling training they were getting really makes me feel confident in the future of like the, the Christian licensed counseling profession. I'm really excited to see you know these, these young people becoming therapists, so that's fantastic. It was just really cool to to like learn all this stuff about trauma healing in the body and and see it integrated with, uh, scripture and a biblical worldview.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I love that. So, kind of along this same line of questions, we talked about anxiety. Another question from our listeners is what are your thoughts on church teachings that depression is a sin? We've talked about anxiety. The other big one is depression.
Becky Castle Miller:I mean, I think it's really hard to claim that depression is a sin when so many of the Psalms show the Psalmists being depressed. Like right we can. We can diagnose a lot of the Psalmists with with clinical depression or major depressive disorder. That's. That's a whole tricky. There's a whole like sub discipline in biblical studies. Can we diagnose biblical characters with modern mental illnesses according to, like the DSM five right Question marks? But I read a really cool paper about, like diagnosing Paul with PTSD by looking at the ends. You know there's some interesting things we can do with that, like multidisciplinary work. Anyway, it's a it's a sub interest for me. But I think I think we can look at many Bible characters Elijah, at times, many of the Psalmists, paul himself himself as having traits of major depressive disorder. So I do not think that a mental illness is a sin and I do not think even just like having a depressed mood is sinful. There are circumstances in our life that lead us to feeling depressed. There are brain chemistry imbalances and difficulties that lead us to like long-term depression. Is counseling help available? There's medical help available. I do not think this is in any way a sin.
Becky Castle Miller:I do think that spiritual healing can be part of a recovery from depression, but because it is partly a medical issue, partly a mental health issue, mental health care providers and doctors can help. We don't have to do it with just spiritual care alone. When we are spiritually depressed, like God, that God's comfort is available to us, but sometimes it's much more than a spiritual issue and it needs more than spiritual help. So I don't want to leave God out of the healing, no, but I think, like an integrated mind, body, spirit healing approach is going to be the most effective and I think that our depression can be protective.
Becky Castle Miller:I was talking to my therapist this week and I was just like I am I'm so heavy, I'm so tired, I'm so worn down with this trauma that I'm dealing with and I realized as we talked that depression was actually a protective force, because that part of me was saying it's too, it is too much for you, but you are dealing with has become your ability to cope. You are at your limit, you cannot keep doing everything you're doing and heal. And it was like this sort of internal protector that was saying slow down, give yourself space to grieve, give yourself space to rest, cut things out. And so the depression which can feel like an enemy could actually be a friend that's protecting us.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's beautiful. I needed that reminder because I've been feeling there's just so much going on everywhere. Yeah, I needed that, Thank you. Our last question, and this might take us a little while to discuss but how can we as church members most of my listeners and we are not in church leadership how do we start becoming trauma informed ourselves? And, secondly, how do we influence our churches in that direction?
Becky Castle Miller:Well, there are so many good books and resources. Are so many good books and resources? Um, a lot of people will say to start with Bessel van der Kolk's the body keeps the score. But so many people find that book really triggering and and have there's there's reasonable questions about van der Kolk himself as a safe, healthy person. Uh, I I tend to not recommend that one. But, like a caveat, maybe don't read, the body keeps the score. Uh.
Becky Castle Miller:But Judith Herman's book trauma and recovery is a good place to start. If you want to read a fat book on trauma, it's readable, but it is. It is research-based, um, and she has a new book called truth and repair that is about, like, what survivors of trauma need to recover. Um, so those are good books. Um, if people are interested in learning about trauma and in an internal family systems uh way, which is one of my favorite therapeutic modalities I'm trained in I is one of my favorite therapeutic modalities I'm trained in IFS use it in my emotion coaching business. But this book transcending trauma Okay, by Frank Anderson, healing complex PTSD with internal family systems therapy, is a really good primer on both trauma and IFS and just gives a lot of hope for, like, how complex trauma can be healed. So reading some of the good books on trauma listening to webinars, reading articles about it if you don't want to read a whole book is a good way to learn what you're doing.
Becky Castle Miller:A good one for people in churches to read is a church called Tove by Scott McKinney and his daughter, laura Berenger. Yeah, not specifically about trauma, but it really is about how goodness Tove means good in Hebrew how goodness can combat toxicity and fight trauma in church cultures. So for people dealing with a spiritually abusive context, a church called Tove is a good starting place. And then they've got a new book called Pivot, which the way they cover, you can see Tove in Pivot. So that's their second book about like how to actually change church culture. So if you're looking to help your church culture change from toxic to Tove, pivot by Scott McKnight and Laura Berenger is an excellent book as well, and those are not academic. Those are very readable books.
Becky Castle Miller:So those are a few places to start, but really just educating yourself on what trauma is, how it impacts the body, what trauma reactivity looks like, signs and symptoms of PTSD. Even if you like Google, what are the diagnostic criteria for PTSD? Like Google, what is what are the diagnostic criteria for PTSD? You'll find from the DSM-5 or the ICD-11, which are two like mental health manuals, diagnostic manuals and read what it takes for someone to be diagnosed with PTSD and you'll see that it involves like intrusive thoughts and flashbacks and triggers, and you know the traumatic event that starts it, but then like how that leaks into their everyday life and impacts their functioning. So just being aware of like how trauma impacts people, um reading out the difference between acute PTSD and um CPTSD or complex PTSD, um acute PTSD can happen after someone experiences one traumatic incident, but when they have been through trauma for a long period of time, it actually becomes complex trauma which has some different symptoms.
Becky Castle Miller:So Google this stuff, read about it, learn about it, develop compassion. Reread the story of the Good Samaritan, because he is moved with compassion, he sees the wounded man. And reread the story of the prodigal son. The father is moved with compassion for the son. So then, when we begin to see people who are traumatized, we begin to create in ourselves, oh, the emotion to take action on this person's behalf and allowing God's compassionate love to seep into us and to begin to come out of us. Is this beautiful biblical emotional response to seeing people in trauma.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I love that. That is beautiful. Well, thank you, becky, so much for spending a few minutes with me tonight to discuss all of this. I really appreciate your work and can't wait to hear more about your studies and your dissertation and everything you are learning, and to pick your brain and learn from you. I hope that you have a wonderful evening. For anyone listening, you can find out more about Becky and her emotional coaching business that she does on her website, which will be linked on this episode beckycastlemillercom. She provides emotional coaching and all the books she has worked on and podcasts she's been. If you're like I, like the way she thinks I want to hear more of what she's done. All of that is on her website. It will be linked on this episode. Thank you so much, becky. It is great to have you. Thank you so much, jessica.
Becky Castle Miller:I'm so glad we got to talk in real time.
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