We Who Thirst
Delve into the captivating tales of women from the Bible, exploring their lives within ancient cultures and historical contexts. These narratives reveal not only their stories but also the profound love and beauty of the God we worship.
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We Who Thirst
012 Understanding God's people not acting like Him
What happens when God's people act in ways that don't reflect His character? Join us for a profound conversation as we unravel this complex question, promising to offer clarity and understanding. Co-host Elice Kilko and I break down this issue into three key parts: theological insights, personal reflection, and navigating practical living amidst disagreement. Drawing from Ephesians 4, we recognize that the church is a work in progress, striving to align with Christ's teachings while needing prophetic voices to guide us through our imperfections.
We explore the enduring struggle within the church of balancing the faithful and the unfaithful, addressing why some Christians may hurt others or misrepresent Jesus' teachings, while secular individuals might appear to embody kindness more fully. This episode emphasizes the importance of distinguishing God's character from the flawed nature of the church, as highlighted in Romans 8, which reassures us of God's unwavering love. Through a process of deconstruction and reconstruction, we aim to refine our understanding of a compassionate and merciful God who draws near to sinners and sufferers.
As we tackle the challenge of handling disagreements within the church, we discuss the courage required to speak truth in love. Whether deciding to stay, hide, or leave a community where hypocrisy prevails, we offer guidance on maintaining humility and repentance. This episode concludes with practical advice on establishing safe and curious conversations, especially with loved ones, ensuring that our discussions are framed by spiritual connection and authentic living. Embrace the courage to confront wrongdoing while nurturing your relationships with love and patience.
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Welcome back. We are continuing our break from discussing women of the Bible in order to focus on soul and heart issues that are really on a lot of our minds right now the last three episodes of this podcast. We've talked a lot about anxiety and how to process that emotion. I had an amazing conversation with Becky Castle Miller, who studies emotions. You definitely want to get that episode if you haven't listened to it already.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Today we are answering a question that I have received so many variations of in my DMs and the question basically is how do we understand God's people not acting like Him? This is a question that weighs on so many of our hearts. With me today is Elise Kilko, who has been my co-host for the Reframing Proverbs 31 series, which is still on break. We had our last episode of that in September and will, lord willing, resume in January going through Proverbs 31. Elise has been my co-host for that. She is a dear friend. Elise, tell me, have you been experiencing this question, or wrestling with this question of how do we understand God's people not acting like Him?
Elice Kilko:Yes, I've been seeing this so much. As we look at world current events and what's going on in the church these days, it's definitely a relevant question to a lot of us right now.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yeah, I think, as we process these questions through, I want to break up our discussion in kind of three general parts. First, how do we process God's people not acting like Him theologically, how do we process it kind of interpersonally or personally? And then lastly, practically, how do we live with those with whom we disagree. So that's kind of the big coat hangers to hang our conversation on. So let's start with how do we process this theologically.
Elice Kilko:All right. So one of the questions that your listeners have asked is how do we process God's people not looking like him, in the sense that it's not just you know one bad apple where it's whole swathes of the church, either directly or just by being complicit and not speaking up covering rampant abuse and people not being like Christ? How can we think through that theologically?
Jessica LM Jenkins:This is such a heavy question. It is one I've personally wrestled with God through a lot Like. You say, lord, that the church is your body, it is your hands and your feet, and yet your hands and feet are harming people. How can this work? How can this be, lord? What are you doing? Why aren't you doing it? It's such a heavy question.
Jessica LM Jenkins:One of the passages that has really helped me process it is Ephesians 4, where Paul says Christ gave himself the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up. And God just reminded me that, to be built up. That he's not done building the body yet. We want to look at the church as the body of Christ as though it's finished. It's done Pretty bow on top, present is wrapped. It's perfect.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But this might be a horrible illustration. It has helped me to think of it more like Frankenstein's monster. It's not finished yet, it is not where it needs to be and it's kind of thrashing around in not great ways. Sometimes we're hoping that it would reflect the Creator, but it's not done yet. It's like a painting. That's in that, like you start, you have a great sketch and then you start painting and it looks way, way, way, way worse before it gets better, and so it's just that we are. The church is in process has been one thing that I've really had to meditate on. That the church is in process, yes, it is God's body, but it is not finished yet. It is being built up and he needs the people of the church to partner with Him in that building up process.
Elice Kilko:That's a really helpful thought. My son is really into building and construction and thinking of a building that's half built you know it's not livable yet that's another easy thing to think of.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So, yeah, that's really helpful remembering that we're not there yet, and especially in light of current events or the sexual abuse scandals that are rocking parts of the church, I think Ephesians 4.11 is really important, especially the very first one or the second one. So Christ gave himself the apostles and the prophets. Our church needs prophetic voices, though they don't like it, but they need prophetic voices to say this is wrong. We can't keep doing this. To call the church back and say you're not acting like God. And that voice to call forth the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, teachers they all function a little bit differently. God has given those gifts to so many different people in the body, but sometimes we need those prophetic voices to say stop, you are not acting like Christ. And so it's being built up. And we need people to remind of the diagram. This is the blueprint of what the unfinished building is supposed to look like. That beam does not go there. Put it over here Instead that's really good.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, that's really good. How else can we think through some of this question?
Jessica LM Jenkins:The other thing God has just continually reminded me, as I am a student of scripture and generally familiar with church history, is that God's people historically have not looked like him.
Elice Kilko:It's nothing new.
Jessica LM Jenkins:It's not a new problem Now. It feels new to me sometimes because especially in the fundamentalist adjacent world that I grew up in, we were the church, we had finally kind of figured it out and, yes, we have little things, but generally we've kind of was kind of the vibe I absorbed. At least I'm not saying they taught that directly, but that's did you kind of get that vibe too?
Elice Kilko:Yes, oh yes, growing up. Yes, that we had it figured out, we had the truth figured out, yeah, and so?
Jessica LM Jenkins:now a huge pain point, I think, for a lot of us and I hear this from a lot of my listeners is that we've grown up, matured, we are now adults with families of our own and we're looking at the churches we grew up in, who the vibe was, they'd figured it out, and we're like no, you didn't, or they've shifted since we were children. And I mean the seeds of that shift is probably always there. And as kids, how are we supposed to know better? We're like seven, but we're seeing that and that hurts because, yes, historically, biblically, theologically, god's people not looking like him has always been true. But in our experience, for many of us, this is newer and that we are having to wrestle with the age old question, for some of us the first time. For some of us, we've been wrestling with this question for years, but it's comforting to my heart to go back and be like Moses was about ready. Moses was like kill me, god, I do not want to shepherd your people anymore, just put me out of my misery. And God was like I'm going to kill them. And Moses is like no, no, please don't, please don't kill them. And we could just go through the entire, which we don't have time to do today, but we could go through the entire history of scripture Moses, israel, judges, kings, exile, return, silence, which wasn't really silent, but that's a whole side discussion.
Jessica LM Jenkins:You get to the gospels. Jesus comes, god's covenant people, israel, most of them rejected Jesus in the flesh and even the ones who didn't reject him didn't get it. They're arguing about who's going to be the greatest, and those are the men closest to Jesus. Then you get to Paul and he's writing letters which are basic. Some of his letters are basically like for the love of all that is good and holy, stop being stupid. And then John writes letters and his are basically like well, you went and were stupid. And we see now there are letters that are like I applaud your faith and you're doing fantastic.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So there's always remnants. There are those who cling. We see that in the Old Testament with the prophets who are clinging to God. We see that in the gospels. We see that with some of the churches that Paul and the others wrote to, they were clinging to God, but many were not. And so this mixed group of faithful, unfaithful failure, this mixed group of faithful, unfaithful failure, clinging, repentance, all of that is a theme that's gone all throughout Scripture and all throughout church history. This is nothing new because God is not finished with it yet. And though it hurts and it's deep, recognizing the not newness of this problem gives me some perspective.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, that it's not. You don't have to invent the wheel, as it were. There's truth there that your forefathers have come to, and you can put your hope in what has already helped.
Elice Kilko:Absolutely what has already helped Absolutely. What are some of the other things that you've been thinking through? A lot of the questions that you've dealt with that people are asking how can, why are Christians hurting or maligning people? Or how can secular people be kinder than people in our church? How can people ignore everything that Jesus said or twist love into something cruel? How can people who seem so sincere about God be so emotionally unhealthy or with zero self-awareness? How can we think through some of those questions? Those are a lot of questions and they could probably be their own podcasts, but what are some things we can think through?
Jessica LM Jenkins:One thing we can think through is that for a lot of those sorts of questions, we just don't fully know. It's easy to look at people and be like, why do you do what you do? And when you're in close relationship with somebody, you might be able to drill down and find out why they do Like with my kids and they do something. I can slowly, inch by inch, drill down, learn how they think, how they work, to figure out why they do. But when we're dealing with large swaths of people, that's really hard, I would say. I think a lot of this is because people at their core are desiring safety and they are avoiding shame, and so they will act in ways that are not like God in order to avoid shame and make themselves feel safe, whatever that feels like, rather than finding their safety in Jesus. Rather than going there, which is what Paul and Peter is continually encouraging the churches in the New Testament to do, you, they will lash out and attack those that challenge the status quo, the safety, and bring to light areas of shame that they would really like to ignore.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And now shame language may not make a whole lot of sense, but you think about church cultures that are very much you have to be righteous, you have to be confessed up. You have to be. You know every time you much you have to be righteous, you have to be confessed up, you have to be you know. Every time you sin you need to confess to God. Kind of a scrupulosity, almost, or even if it's not fully scrupulous, it's still just. This sin is a personal thing that you are responsible for, and so sometimes people because sin is completely personal responsibility in those circles to be told that they're messing up feels deeply shameful, like they are a personal failure, and so they would rather lash out against the other person than to deeply consider their own culpability in systems or to consider their own personal actions that have damaged others.
Elice Kilko:Okay, so theologically, you've talked about Ephesians 4. And as we process then theologically, now interpersonally, how can we trust here's another listener question how can we trust that God is safe when his church and people aren't, or mostly?
Jessica LM Jenkins:aren't. This is really hard, and a lot of this comes back to the theological questions we've already had, and we learn God's character and that he is for his people and that he is for his people. Romans 8 tells us very clearly there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, that nothing can separate us from the love of God, and so in some ways we have to see God as separate from the church, which is really hard because we want the church to be an accurate reflection of Jesus, but unfortunately it's often not, and so mentally for myself, as I've wrestled with this, I have to make the differentiation that the church does not always accurately reflect God. But I can see God's character clearly in scripture. I can see where Adam and Eve sin. They immediately break God's covenant, and God doesn't come at them with wrath, he doesn't come at them with anger. He comes with them with gentle curiosity, drawing them back into relationship. And I talk about this in the very first episode of this whole podcast, the Eve episode. Listen to that if you haven't.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But God is constantly drawing people into relationship with Him, and so this is where deconstruction and reconstruction can be really important, because sometimes the church has given us faulty ideas about God that if you mess up he's just going to hammer you right away.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That if you mess up he's just going to hammer you right away. And God approaches us with gentleness when we mess up, when we are suffering. He is bound by his compassionate, merciful nature to draw near, like a mother does her young child who is injured. God is bound by his nature to draw near to the sinner and the sufferer. He does not stand far off like a judge saying, condemn that person for what they did. It is like the parent who has told the child five times don't run in those shoes, you're going to slip and skin your knee. And the child runs and they slip and they skin their knee and the good parent runs over, picks up the child and holds them. And that is the relationship, that God is safe in that way. But sometimes that requires a lot of deconstruction and reconstruction to get there, because sometimes the way the church has described God is not accurate to his nature.
Elice Kilko:That's so good. Those are some really good thoughts. The next question from one of your listeners is so relevant how do I distinguish myself from the people of God who don't act like God without being hypocritical or turning my back on my community? So many of us are dealing with this question and thinking through this issue. What would you say to those listeners?
Jessica LM Jenkins:I would say there's two different questions in this question, so I want to kind of handle them separately. First is how do I distinguish myself from the people of God who don't act like God without being a hypocrite? So first is a concern about distinguishing without hypocrisy, and the second is how do I do this without turning my back? So let's talk about distinguishment without hypocrisy. I would say the way you do that is to be relentless might be the wrong word, but to be steadfast in calling out that which is evil, and to that means both in the world and your own life. So you distinguish yourself from people who don't act like God by pointing out these things are not of God. But you also do that ruthlessly for yourself. You yell at your kid in front of your neighbor and you try to, in front of your neighbor, call your kid over and be like honey. I was sorry, I should not have yelled at you. That does not honor God, that is not how God loves us. And you do that in front so that there isn't hypocrisy. It's like, oh, she talks about love but she yells at her kids. It's like I'm human, I mess up, but I confess and I repair and I repent, and that is what keeps us from being hypocrites, because it is when you preach a standard that you refuse to hold for yourself. That is where hypocrisy lies. But when you hold yourself to the same or higher standard, you are holding other Christians who aren't acting like God. You're not going to be a hypocrite Because when you mess up in those areas, you're going to call it out and be like I, messed up, and we have the freedom to do this, because we are not having to hold our own salvation by our goodness.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Back to what we talked about how some people feel like they have to be confessed up and they can't be sinning. They, I think sometimes, though they would never say it, I think sometimes, though they would never say it fall into. The. Christ saved me, but now it's all on me, sure, and if we can live in the continual, it's not on me. I am free to confess. I messed up, I'm sorry, I was grouchy and I was harsh with you. That's not like Jesus. I you know, whatever the situation may be, and that keeps us from hypocrisy and that spirit of humility allows us to call out these sins while being very aware of our own.
Elice Kilko:What about the second part of that question? How do you distinguish yourself from the people of God who don't act like God without turning yourself or without turning your back on your community? That second part of the question?
Jessica LM Jenkins:This is where it gets tricky and we'll discuss more nuances of this as we go through some of the other questions. But part of the prophets of Israel were distinct from Israel in that they were calling out and holding up God's standard for Israel. So they're distinct because they're calling this is what God says, this is what we need to do, and they're trying to live out God's commands. So they are distinct from Israel in that way. But they did not turn their back on their community, because they are still entreating their community to come back to God. So you can hold up the standard, humbly saying, hey, I'm messing up and I'm calling out when I mess up as much as I'm calling out when you mess up.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But that doesn't mean we stop that distinguishment, the bringing people back to Jesus. And sometimes that's more of a prophetic voice of thus says the Lord, you are doing X and you should be doing Y. Sometimes that's a prophetic voice of saying Jesus is near. And I see that you, you are struggling to confront this fear in your life because you are afraid of admitting that you're sinful, because you're afraid that if you admit you're sinful, you're standing before God might be in jeopardy, and so I want to help you see the loving kindness of Jesus, because if you can walk in the loving kindness of Jesus and the freedom of Jesus, then you will have the internal wherewithal to confront your own sin. Then we can have a conversation about how you're not living like Christ.
Elice Kilko:Sure, so that kind of goes into the next listener question. You gave some really good things to think about your next listener question. You gave some really good things to think about. Your next listener question was how do you handle people who claim Christ but look and act nothing like him? And within current events, recent issues, this has come up so much. So how can we think through disagreements and all sorts of things like that To?
Jessica LM Jenkins:handle people who claim Christ and look and act nothing like him. Consider the disagreements Is this, just show it, and it may be two or three of these.
Elice Kilko:It's or something.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I'm not mentioning that I haven't thought of in this moment. But these disagreements can show God's approval through expressions of his character. It can reveal our desires and that's something we need to examine closely and it can very clearly sometimes show who is in his will and who is not.
Elice Kilko:So would you say then that we need to decide then what kind of disagreement it is and then whether we want to remain in fellowship at all and if so, how do we go about it? How do we stay in fellowship, or how do we? Do we stay or do we go? That's such a big question too.
Jessica LM Jenkins:It is such a big question because sometimes when you handle people who claim Christ but don't look at him, you have to decide can I still associate with this group? And in the second Thessalonians three, where the people were being idle and sowing discord, paul said stop associating with them.
Jessica LM Jenkins:No more and we don't get that clear of a distinction. We have to really really walk in the spirit on this. But generally, when you see a group of people who are claiming Christ and not living like it, you have one of three options. There may be more, but I can think of three. You can stay in that group to be the light of what they're supposed to be to them. That takes a lot of internal fortitude and that is a specific calling of God. You can stay and you can hide. You can be like this is the only place for me. I'm just going to try to not get bogged down. Yeah, I'm just going to try to make it through here. Or you can leave and you could do this quietly. Or you can do this openly, sometimes loudly if there's rampant sin. So you can do it quietly. You can just. You know I think you said when we were pre-discussing in the dead of the night you just bail and sometimes, especially if it's highly abusive and you are a victim, that is what you need to do.
Elice Kilko:There is no shame in being like for my safety.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So you can leave quietly and sometimes, when you're the victim, that needs to happen. If you are maybe not the victim, or if you are and you feel like you have the wherewithal, the support elsewhere to do so, you can leave openly saying yes, we are leaving and here is why, and we are concerned about X, y and Z, and sometimes and I say this tentatively and only by the Spirit make this decision. You leave loudly and you let everybody know there are these major sins going on and we cannot abide it and we will leave. And you stand your ground as you walk out the door, heralding the truth and shining light on the evil which church cultures do not appreciate. They would prefer everybody just leave quietly, which is a valid option, but sometimes people need to say this is a train wreck. If you stay, you will crash. You can leave with me or you can crash. But again, this is, we have to be walking by the spirit and discerning how he would have us and our individual situation handle that.
Elice Kilko:So then, how would you say you determine if a space is safe, especially if we disagree with a number of issues? So say that you've decided to stay and maybe not quite speak up with everything that you disagree. How do you determine is this space still safe for me to be here if I've decided to stay? How can we think through some of those issues?
Jessica LM Jenkins:There's several different types of safety and I think determining safety will also help you determine whether to stay or leave, because there are some places that just aren't safe and you have to leave. And you may only disagree on one thing or another, but you have to leave. And I would come back to a lot with what we talked to about approval earlier. A place is safe safer when it is reflecting the fruit of the Spirit and a 1 Corinthians love in most I'm not going to say all, but in most aspects of the church is the leadership.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Are the leadership people who exemplify a 1 Corinthians love? Are they humble? Are they easy to be entreated? When you come to them with a concern or a problem, do they respond to you with curiosity or do they respond to you with defensiveness? Do they blame you or do they try to find out your heart? And so it is easier to coexist in a place where you disagree on issues if they are exemplifying godly character. It also determines what are the issues that are being disagreed on Carpet color. It's pretty easy to stay in a place with carpet color that you hate because it's not really an issue, not a major break issue.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Right. But let's say you have a person in your family with a severe disability and the church doesn't think they need to be disability friendly. And you've talked with them, and even if they have a lot many fruits of the spirit and they seem easy to entreat and they are curious, but they just don't care to care for people with disability, that's a disagreement that you're not going to be able to stay and, and so you have to weigh these things out on. What are the disagreements? How heavy are they? Obviously, this one pains me deeply because I see a lot and I think this is where a lot of our, all of our ache comes from. Right now we see a lot of pastors and men in power and I don't mean that derogatorily, it just is factual. They are men in power who seem on the surface like they are men of character. This one's been in the news so I can talk about it One of my professors in seminary.
Jessica LM Jenkins:His name was Dr Matt Queen, sweetest man you've ever met. I mean he's going to cry and literally cry and pray over you in the hallway about some concern you have. He is gentle in his teaching, he is kind, he is gracious, like if I was to say. This man exemplifies the fruit of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 13,. He would be it. And then there was a sexual abuse that happened on campus and his boss told him to make it go away. So he falsified records and lied to the FBI and is now going to be. I don't know what his sentence is, I haven't tracked it that closely, but he seems on the surface. But he did not have the internal fortitude and backbone to do what is right. So when you're evaluating safety, first look to see are they exemplifying fruits of the spirit? But do they have the internal fortitude to do what is right when push comes to shove, when their power is threatened and when the weak and the vulnerable, who they gain nothing from, are going to be harmed by their inaction?
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's really important to think through those two things you have to hold together, because I know a lot of really sweet, seemingly godly those two things you have to hold together because I know a lot of really sweet, seemingly godly people who do not have the internal fortitude to stand up against abuse, who would rather sweep it under the rug and keep the status quo than risk their livelihood and say, no, this is wrong. So you have to have both for it to be truly safe. But the more they are doing those things, even if you disagree on the roles of women in ministry or who we vote for president or governor or whatever, even if you disagree, but you see them acting out both fruits of the spirit and a willingness to put themselves on the line for the weak and the vulnerable, then you know this is a safe, generally safe place. We can't always guarantee, but at least it gives us the facilitators.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, that's a really good framework. So at what point do you speak up and what can that look like? What are some things we can think through.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I would encourage us all and I'm preaching to myself, because there are some areas I am fundamentally angry in. Right now I don't feel like the fruit of the spirit 1 Corinthians 13, or like the first things on my mouth. I would much rather just light a match and watch it burn like burn it down, but all of us bear, as Paul would say. It is good for you to be reminded, and it's good for me to remind us all, that as we discuss disagreements, we need to walk in love and the fruit of the Spirit. We need to make that commitment Regardless them. We need to walk by the Spirit. Now, that doesn't mean sometimes strong words don't need to be shared, and this is where it gets tricky, because there are churches, there are family structures where you're not allowed to say strong words. Strong words are considered rude, and that's where you have to considered rude and that's where you have to, by the Spirit, learn that no, my boundary or me calling out sin is not rude. That is godly. It is still exemplifying fruits of the Spirit I can look at, and Elise and I have done this to each other before. We've been like hey, I did not appreciate when you did X? Y Z, x, y, z, and then just straight, blunt, straightforward. There are cultures where that's not allowed and you might need the internal fortitude to go against that cultural conditioning, but it's not. I want, dear one listen for those of you who have been culturally conditioned that you're not allowed to put boundaries or speak truth, that you have to play nice. Playing nice is not a fruit of the spirit. Amen, it's not.
Jessica LM Jenkins:The fruit of the spirit is gentle. You don't have to be harsh. The fruit of the spirit is patient. You can wait a long time before you say what you need to say. It is steadfast. It's going to hold firm to its position. It is love. You are looking for the good of the other person.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit. You can look at someone and say I see what you did there and I am deeply concerned that when you did that you enabled evil in these ways and because of that I can no longer trust you in these areas. That is not cruel, that is not mean they might feel like it is, because the family structure or church structure says we don't say things directly, but match your words to the fruit of the Spirit. You can be bold, you can be clear, you can be direct and still walk in a 1 Corinthians love. Love is patient, love is kind. You're not being mean to someone by calling out where they have failed. Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. You're not putting yourself up to put them down. It is not easily angered.
Jessica LM Jenkins:You are practicing self-control. It's not keeping records of wrong. You're not necessarily bringing something up from or continuing to bring something up from 15 years ago just to beat them with it. Sometimes you do have to bring something up from a while ago to facilitate repair. That is peacemaking work and Jesus says blessed are the peacemakers. So when we speak up we do it with fruits of the spirit, and I kind of went off on a tangent. But I know there are those out there who are in families where speaking up of any kind or holding a gentle boundary is frowned upon and they feel like they're doing something wrong when they're not. I want you to hear that listeners Holding a boundary, speaking up truth about evil, may be penalized by your family or community. That does not mean you are not walking in the spirit and you are not exemplifying the fruits of the spirit. So we always try to lace our communication with love and the fruit of the spirit.
Elice Kilko:That's so good. It makes me think of Philippians 4.8, because so often, in so many circles, philippians 4.8 is used kind of as a gag order you know if it's not, if it's not true, if it's not noble and it kind of gets used as this gag order when really what it's saying is what you are speaking should be true and noble and right and pure, and oftentimes calling out the evilness, you can do it in a kind way, you can say the strong words and by doing that you're following what God said, and the God of peace will be with you, oh amen. So yeah, that's so good, that's so helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I do want to give a caveat because if we're to walk by the spirit when we speak up, we also have to recognize and this is where I've had to be with myself we have to recognize when we're not in a place to do that and step back from those conversations. I've had to recognize on certain areas recently that I'm not in a place to listen with curiosity or even be particularly kind. My natural bent is to be blunt and in someone's face and I'm walking around with a lighter in my pocket ready to set someone on fire and I'm like there are certain people in certain conversations I am not in a place to have right now and I need to not be having those right now because I could damage someone, because my temptation would not be walking in the spirit and I would not be looking out for their good.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I would be venting my anger upon them, which is not going to help anybody.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, that's such a good thing to know about ourselves and to be intentional in when we speak and when we don't, when we sit out of the conversation. So then another question that you got. One of my friends said that her goal is then to be curious and hold an open posture so that when she disagrees with someone who has questions or concerns, she can be a safe person. How do you know if that person is a safe person? So she tries to figure out. How do you deal with that?
Jessica LM Jenkins:I think positioning ourselves as a safe person can be really helpful. I'm not saying we always have to do that, because I do think there are some areas in life we can hold a hard line and be like you can come thus far, but no farther. I'm not going to harm you, but I will allow no behaviors. And then in some areas we allow people their messy wrestling. I don't know if that makes sense.
Elice Kilko:So what you're saying is, then, part of being a safe person doesn't mean holding no boundaries. It means listening with curiosity and having an open posture, but holding a boundary of here's where I stand, yeah, within that curiosity.
Jessica LM Jenkins:The more. I think often, the more we can approach people with curiosity and help see what they need and where they're coming from, the more beneficial the conversations will often not always, but often be. I think that should be. Maybe our first goal is to listen that way. But I do think there are times and we see it in scripture where someone and you generally you do this with someone you have a relationship with, not someone outside. Like you don't just pull up your neighbor who you never talked to and like give it to them straight, but like I can call up Elise and give it to her straight because we have a decade of relationship, that giving it to her straight is built upon Somebody I knew I'm going to and I'm still curious with her, but I can, I can give it to her straight because we have that depth of relationship.
Jessica LM Jenkins:If I'm building relationship with somebody, I really want to leave it more open for the curiosity. But there are also times and this is where we also read the room You're talking with somebody and you're positioning yourself. You want to be a safe place for the person you're talking to, but you're also needing to position yourself as a safe place for the people who are too afraid and feeling unsafe to speak up in that room. So I might be a little more bold, direct, less curious, just holding my line with Aunt Gertrude, because I know Cousin Vinny over there needs me to be a safe space. Aunt Gertrude doesn't really care. So I might hold a little stiffer with Aunt Gertrude and kind of hold her, push back on her a little more harshly, because I want Vinny to know I am safe for trauma or viewpoints and I'm aligning myself with good rather than evil. So sometimes I might sit down and listen to someone with a lot of curiosity. Sometimes I might push back on them quite heavily, quite guardedly, and the Spirit has to give us discernment on when to do that.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And I think 1 Thessalonians 5 gives us some really significant insight on how to do that. Let me read verse 14. Paul says we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. So he kind of gives us three categories of people. You have the idle and disruptive person in this illustration, that's Aunt Gertrude. You have the disheartened, that's Cousin Vinny. Then you have the weak, that's Uncle Jeff.
Elice Kilko:The person that doesn't even know what to ask.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yeah, and so you're going to interact with each of those people a little differently. Aunt Gertrude, you might just be blunt and no X, y, z is evil, and here is why. And she might blow you off and go tell all her friends about her crazy niece. That's fine. You're going to encourage Vinny and Uncle Joe or the other person who is just weak. You're going to help them along step by step. And so we try to walk in the spirit as we're talking with individuals who are they. Do they need to be warned, do they need to be encouraged or do they need to be helped? All three I'm going to be patient with. But how hard or soft I come at somebody let's say it that way is determined by them and the relationship I have with them. Someone I don't know as well, I'm generally going to come out a little softer than someone I have a deeper relationship with.
Elice Kilko:That is some really good framework for us to think through. Yeah, you have one more listener question and I think you touched on most of it. But how do you deal with parents that are sure they're right or anybody else? You know parents that are sure they're right and we're not, and they want to talk about it. They want to engage, particularly when you love this person. Perhaps they're your boomer parents, perhaps not, perhaps they're someone else. Yet you feel disappointed because you see their hypocrisy.
Jessica LM Jenkins:A lot of this will be dependent on your relationship with them and how much open and honest conversation is allowed in your family dynamic my family dynamic. I can have really messy, unfun conversations with my parents and walk away in complete surety that we will be okay, our relationship. There is nothing I could do to jeopardize my relationship with my parents. Even if it's a messy, messy conversation and they hang up on me, I can call back tomorrow and we can talk it out.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Not everybody has that safety and so sometimes, and are they willing to listen? I have trust that my parents, even if we're going to end up on other sides of the fence, even if we are going to always strongly disagree on this, we will. They are willing to listen, they are willing to be entreated, they are willing to. Let me call them out. Some parents aren't. They may want to talk about it, not because they want to know you and your thoughts, because they want to get their point home, and so you have to determine what is the other person's goal when they want to talk about this. And there's a place to talk, there's a place to put up boundaries and say like I'm sorry.
Jessica LM Jenkins:This is an issue, I'm not going to talk about I'm not going to talk about, and there's a place to share your disappointment and the fact that you feel like they're hypocrites. There's a place not to, and so, again, by the spirit, we have to discern those things. But you also have my permission, if you're listening, that you don't have to be pushed into a conversation you're not ready for. You might just be like I love you, I am willing to talk about that. I can't today.
Elice Kilko:They might not like that, and that's their problem.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's not your. You have that permission.
Elice Kilko:Any other summarizing thoughts?
Jessica LM Jenkins:summarizing thoughts, just that all of these things are incredibly tricky to walk through. I'm giving high level answers to these questions, but these questions have real rubber meets the road consequences. There are real relationships that these questions impact. There are real relationships that these questions impact and being able to discern safety for yourself. Now, why would safety for yourself matter?
Jessica LM Jenkins:Let me go off on that for a minute, because I come from a culture where you're not supposed to necessarily seek your own safety. Why would safety for yourself matter? Because if you are not safe, your body is going to be in fight flight all the time, which means your mind cannot think clearly enough to hear the spirit much of the time I'm not going to say always, because the spirit can if he needs to get through. But you will be more able to walk with God and hear the spirit if you are in a place of safety. That doesn't mean we don't sometimes put ourselves in situations.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Talking with Aunt Gertrude may feel really dangerous, but I feel like the Lord wants me to do that right now. We sometimes put ourselves in those situations, but it is not healthy and it is not good for our spiritual relationship to live in a place that lacks safety, because often your mind will become cloudy, you won't be able to hear. You're going to hear the voices of your culture above the voice of the spirit, and you're not going to be able to swim your way out of that, and so being able to find safe people and safe places in which you can process will help you learn to hear the voice of the spirit, which will help you figure out how to engage these tricky situations when the rubber meets the road. Yeah, so I think that is the advice I have for those sorts of situations.
Elice Kilko:Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. We have so much to think through and I think that your framework and the passages you've brought up have been really really helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I do pray that all of these things will help us all as we wrestle, because our wrestling isn't over. This podcast doesn't begin to scratch the surface or solve any of the problems, but I do pray that for Elise in my hearts and all of our listeners' hearts, that God will continue to shepherd us through all of this. As we look and see, there's a lot of people who claim Jesus, that don't act like him, and may he guide us, step by step, how to live that out. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for joining us. Have a great day.
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