We Who Thirst by Jessica LM Jenkins
Delve into the captivating tales of women from the Bible, exploring their lives within ancient cultures and historical contexts. These narratives reveal not only their stories but also the profound love and beauty of the God we worship.
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We Who Thirst by Jessica LM Jenkins
019 The Wisdom and Beauty of Proverbs 31: Final Reflections
The Proverbs 31 woman isn't following a checklist but building a lifetime resume that encompasses community service, wisdom, and beauty that deepens with age.
• Proverbs 31 shows a cumulative picture of a woman's life accomplishments, not daily expectations
• God delights in all types of women—both gentle homemakers and driven entrepreneurs
• The Woman of Valor has a community mindset, personally engaging with the poor and needy
• Only one verse mentions her children, challenging the notion that womanhood equals motherhood
• Her beauty comes from her wisdom and fear of the Lord, not just physical appearance
• She teaches with "Torah of chesed"—instruction with covenant faithfulness and backbone
• The passage showcases how God values women's contributions both inside and outside the home
• A woman's voice is meant to be heard, sharing wisdom and practical knowledge
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Welcome back. Today is our last episode of the Proverbs 31 podcast series. After today I'm hoping to move to talk about some of the women that Jesus interacted with in the Gospels. So I can't wait to move from the Old Testament and talk about a few New Testament women. But today we're going to wrap up talking about Proverbs 31, specifically the woman of valor's community, children and teaching. With me today is my dear friend Elise Kilko. She is a gifted community builder, wife, mother and foreign worker. Elise, as we bring the Proverbs 31 series to a close, what thoughts from the whole series stand out to you as important?
Elice Kilko:I've loved this series and I've loved doing it with you, but I think that one of the things that most stands out to me is that Proverbs 31 isn't a checklist, it's a cumulative, it's a resume, it's a woman's resume at the end of her life. I love that, yeah, and so I love that that just that alone takes so much pressure off of us today when we look at it, and it gives us something to aspire to, so it takes the pressure off and it encourages us to move forward. And so I think if I could like, if I could really condense it to like one thing, I think that that's what it would be.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I love that. I know that's been so good for me and so healing for me. I realized before I started studying Proverbs 31, all of these womanhood scars I have and studying Proverbs 31 deeply has healed many of those.
Elice Kilko:Yes, that's true, and we just realized that we've been friends for 17 years, which surprised both of us Like a literal child could be an adult now.
Jessica LM Jenkins:It's crazy.
Elice Kilko:But one of those things that I've noticed through our study of Proverbs 31, as as our friendship has grown, is how we've walked through this passage together in those 17 years and seeing this passage heal our triggers as we come to it now. Then the little 21, 22 year old babies that we were when we studied in Israel together, and I love that. I love that.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I love that this passage has walked that whole life with us you know, yes, absolutely, and I love seeing God's delight in various types of women. I think one thing from Proverbs 31 that has stood out to me the most, enough that I actually wrote an article for the CBE International Organization and they published it actually today, which will be a couple weeks ago by this time this episode is aired but on the masculine imagery around womanhood in Proverbs 31, and we have an episode on that. You can go back in the series. We talked through pretty much everything in my article.
Jessica LM Jenkins:In that episode the people prefer to read I will link the CBE article but just recognizing that God delights in all sorts of women through Proverbs 31. God loves the gentle, quiet, meek woman who loves babies and is the ultimate homemaker. God delights in that. And God also delights in the strong, driven, assertive type A entrepreneurial CEO who is moving and shaking in her community, and that God looks at both of those women as they fear the Lord in their respective ways of living and says that's really cool, and I love that for all of our listeners because it gives such freedom, as you said, to no matter what he is gifted and called these women to do. They can walk in that in joy, saying this is what God called me to do, and it is hard, holy work, whether I'm rocking babies or imagining managing a Fortune 500 company. It is hard and holy work because God called me to do it and God delights in me doing what he's called me to do.
Elice Kilko:Yes, that's beautiful, yeah, and it's exciting to see that you can be fully the person that God made you to be, regardless of where you fall on the spectrum.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So to get back into Proverbs 31 for our episode today, we've talked about the idea that the woman of valor follows her passions and does what she's good at. That was our last couple episodes.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But, I really want to notice something about her. The woman of valor is not pursuing self-actualization or even her own good. She's not doing all these things to puff herself up and make herself better. Everything the woman of valor does is for the good of her family and community, as well as herself. She has this mindset that encompasses the other people in her world as she follows her passions. It's not a selfish pursuit. It's for the good of those around her, which I think is absolutely beautiful and central to the messaging of this entire passage.
Elice Kilko:And we see that in verse 19 and 20. Verse 19 and 20 says she extends her hands to the spinning staff and her hands hold the spindle, her hands reach out to the poor and she extends her hands to the needy. So it talks about her not just doing it for her but out her door, out her family.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yes, and I love that. She's personally engaged with helping the poor and needy. And these are ones who can't work If we were to use modern vernacular we might say the disabled, those who are on food stamps, the single mom who can't get a job that pays for child care. She's not educated enough or privileged enough to get a job that pays a living wage enough to pay both their living expenses and child care, so she can't even figure out what to do. It's these types of people that the Proverbs 31 is leveraging her wealth and her position to help these people. Her focus is not how to get better or just to improve her family life, to keep up with the Joneses, as they would say. She's reaching down for those below her, leveraging her position to give them life.
Elice Kilko:That's amazing and it really shows her community mindset that it's not just about her, but that she's looking to those around her.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And she's bringing them into her community. It's not just going and volunteering at a food bank. So I'm from a wealthy white neighborhood and I'm going to drive into the inner city and volunteer for two hours at a food bank, which is a perfectly fine thing to do. I'm not disparaging that. But there's that distance there. In verse 19 or 20, it says she spreads out her palm to the poor and the needy. This could imply invitations into her home for care or giving them physical materials. So it's the difference between driving to the food pantry to volunteer. I remember as a child and teenager we'd go volunteer at a homeless shelter. It's one thing to leave the comfort of my home and go where people are disenfranchised and help them, which is a good thing to do. It's another to bring the disenfranchised people near home with you to give them something out of your pantry, to feed and clothe them yourself, to help them find a job. She's doing so much more than simple volunteer work.
Elice Kilko:That's really interesting. What do you think are some ways that we can leverage our work, wealth and privilege to help others? Today, Like thinking through.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yeah, I think a lot of that comes back to being creative, learning, hospitality. However, that looks for our life. Our life, that means using our wealth and our privilege for other people. One way I know that I have tried to do this is using part of the money I earn from products that I sell here at we who Thirst. I have a set percentage of that that automatically goes to donations to help immigrants at the border or orphans in the Ukraine or mothers of color in my local region. There's some pregnancy centers that help them with like child care and food and all of those things. So we we intentionally seek out ways of investing our money if we can.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I know people who've brought refugees in and helped them find jobs and homes, and that will depend what's going on in your area. There's two For me. I recently got a job substitute teaching in our local public school, and that fulfilled two categories One, I needed a job, but two, I wanted that job because it is a way I can, on a daily basis, interface with the people of my community and the little children of my community. The least of these, the disabled students, the kindergartners. A lot of them are on a lower socioeconomic place than my family is, and it gives me a way to be there caring for the little students that need someone to come and take care of them that day, students that need someone to come in and take care of them that day and to find ways and jobs that may not be glamorous and awesome but meet very real needs in our real communities.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, for sure, I think I think of you know when you're going to get food. Maybe you've had a busy day and you're going to go pick up food at Chick-fil-A or whatever and you see a family outside that needs it and so you buy them a meal as well. But then also I think of I mean I know we're talking about Proverbs 31 and the woman but my husband is a public school bus driver right now, as we're doing training, and he makes a point of knowing, trying to know each kid's name and talking to them and saying I, you know, I talked to him and I was like you should say good morning to all of the students as they get on the bus, like really, you know, make eye contact and connect with them. And he said that he has had different parents come up to him and say thank you for connecting with my kid.
Elice Kilko:They're having a rough time at school and you know you're saying hi every day and just giving that smile has made a difference and so, in that you know, substitute teaching role as you're doing, I, that that is. That is that you know. Um, I worked with the Y before and after school care years ago when I was in college and it was the same way. I loved being able to impact the students and be the one that gives that smile or reads the same book every single day, you know, to that kid because they love it, and that's, you know. Three minutes where they have your undivided attention.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So yeah, and sometimes some of the best ways we can help is just by creating health in our homes and in our churches and in our communities, because that overflows. We may not have a lot of day-to-day opportunities to reach out and help those who are poor and needy, especially where we live in suburbia. There's not a whole lot, you see, going on. When I lived down in Austin proper you'd see homeless out quite a bit, and so the idea of having like homeless bags in your car to give them some food and socks and underwear and that kind of thing was really practical.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Where I live now we don't have that and so there may not be a lot of day to day but we can still create health and awareness in our communities that could reach out to those poor, disenfranchised opportunities. But it also can help those who have needs who maybe they're not financial needs, maybe they're not homeless or disenfranchised. But we can help the mom who's down the street and has had a string of sickness where her kids have been sick for literally eight weeks and she is just drowning, and we can build a community where our suburban lifestyle of everybody who parks in their driveway and goes inside and barely talks to each other. We can start to break that down some. Elise. What are some tips and things that you have done to create community in various spaces in your life?
Elice Kilko:That's a good question. I think at different points in my life it's been the usual. In my life it's been, you know, the usual. Let's start a, a Bible study or um let's do a book club, like you know.
Elice Kilko:Let's read whatever um book and then talk about it. But then also um, for me, even way back in college, um, it was just having people over for afternoon snack or tea. So I had a hot pot in my college room and when people would come in and talk with me I'd ask them do you want tea or coffee or you know whatever hot chocolate? So even just simple ways. And even now my life is very different than it was when I was in college. But I still really try to make space and that is life giving. You know, it's encouraging to my heart when I have those times to sit and chat with people and see what they're learning and how they're doing. But then also it's encouraging to me, like I enjoy encouraging others. But then it also encourages my heart and I think that knowing sometimes you can't be the one that does it because of the season of life that you're in. You might be the mom who's had sick kids. I might be Exactly.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And you can't do anything else.
Elice Kilko:But knowing where the web of the community is. Sometimes you can't be the person that does it, but you can be the one that connects. So you're in the trenches and you're having a rough time and you happen to talk to a mom who's also having a really rough time and maybe all it takes is you send that text to your friend that has a little bit more space and says hey, I'm drowning, but this isn't about me. I checked in with this person and they are also drowning. Can you go rescue them? And so I think that that is sometimes really important, especially right now in the season of life that I'm in. Sometimes I can't give as much as I have in the past or as much as I would like, but by knowing where that community is, wherever I am in the season of life maybe I'm not the one that's actively working in it, but knowing where it is, I can connect, and I think that that's really important as well.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And I think one thing that's really significant in building community. We've talked a lot about what to do and what you can do practically, which is important, but I think we also have to focus on who we are and the being aspect, because one thing I've noticed about you, elise, is that you are really excellent at keeping healthy relationships with a broad variety of people. You have friends who have deconstructed from the faith and decided they're atheists. You have managed, even though you hold a traditional Christian view of sex and marriage. You have friends who are LGBTQBT. You have friends who are LGBTQBT.
Jessica LM Jenkins:You have cross-cultural friends with your cross-cultural work, and so there are things in the how we interact with people, how we keep not necessarily a lack of judgment, but we approach people with curiosity. That's what I'm trying to say. What would you say to that? How do you because building community, we have to hold an open hand with curiosity. Not this is our community as long as you are white, middle class, straight Christian Like how do you keep that open hand for all sorts of people of various ethnic, financial, religious, sexual backgrounds?
Elice Kilko:That's such a good question and something I'm super passionate about. I definitely have a soapbox about that which I do not need to step up on, but but I think that what allows me to do that and thank you for giving me such a beautiful compliment, because that is what I strive to is really I mean, it sounds kind of trite to say, focusing on God's love, but dude, focusing on God's love, but dude, focusing on God's love, I think, and I think down to like the marrow of my being, like I just I feel so deeply that Jesus loved everyone, god so loved the world. And when we read the gospels we see that he didn't hang out with the cool kids, like he did not. He specifically went to the outcast and so he went to the outcast and that's what we see the Proverbs 31 woman doing, exactly Of those times. And the outcasts of those times were, you know, not Jewish people and you know sexually impure quote, unquote, you know and those who were ostracized by the religious. You know, leaders.
Elice Kilko:And I feel very strongly that in these times, if Jesus came incarnate today, I am not above saying that he may have been on the outskirts of a pride parade, holding one of those papers that says free hugs. You know just being a person who meets you where you are and that's not to say that he would be, you know, like woo woo. You know just being the person that is there. And I think Something that affects me very deeply and allows me to love, even when I disagree with the viewpoint of the person that I am loving, is realizing that I am not responsible for my friend's actions. I am responsible for my own actions, and so my responsibility is to love and reflect Jesus, and if I am loving and reflecting Jesus, then that's it. That's the whole deal. I am not responsible for the decisions they make, but I am responsible to love them where they are, and I am responsible to be the light that they can come back to if they decide they want to.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Amen, yeah, and one thing you didn't mention but I know you do it and I think I try to do this as well is learning about different people's experiences. To do this as well is learning about different people's experiences, whether it's international experiences you're a third culture kid but also just being endlessly curious about how people function, their personalities, their neurodivergence, the way they think and process the world, understanding trauma. I know some of my best friends I've been able to make because understanding a trauma allows me to see them, I can look past everything they're saying and because we have a friendship and permission and I ask for permission. I'm not trying to be nosy and bulldoze my way in, but it's. Hey, this may be out of line, but I'm noticing and I can see past everything and I can notice X Is that something you might want to talk about? And they just look at me like no one has ever seen that before.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And being able. I think this is why people were so drawn to Jesus. Not that I'm comparing, but Jesus could look past everything and see the heart of someone and see underneath the layers of pain and trauma and hurt and misunderstanding and be like. I see you and people are like. I've never experienced this I cannot leave the side of that man.
Elice Kilko:I think that that's what we see with the woman at the well, which is why it's my favorite gospel conversation ever. We who thirst came from that exact passage, exactly Because that is exactly her reaction to Jesus. He saw everything I've ever done. I think of Hagar, who named Jesus, or who named God. The God who sees, and I think that that is who the Proverbs 31 woman is is someone who loves God so much that she is his hands and feet to her community and her everywhere that she is.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And she's able to see. And I think, as we think about how do we build community, how do we build friendships, how do we grow into people who God can give eyes to see those around us, to see their pain, to see what's going on with them, so that we don't give trite responses? But God, because we're curious and learning constantly, god can give us the wisdom to see beyond the surface and meet people where they're at, and I think that does something to build a richness in community. It's also terrifying because some people don't want to be seen. They you start to go a little deeper, they're like oh no, you know, and so being wise with it. But for those who are hurting, they need to be seen. I'm generally a very direct person. That's just my personality.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I know I mean that's even how you and I became friends because we're both pretty strong direct people.
Elice Kilko:And we did not like each other at first. I remember we were at Israel. No, we did not. We had a whole meeting.
Jessica LM Jenkins:We were going to sway the whole team. It was like we could either fight this whole time, because we were there for nine months in a house together studying. There was like seven students, eight of us students, eight students I can't even remember, and so we are two eighths, one fourth of the students and we're like we can either fight this whole time or and we looked at each other and it's like we are going to be friends and we decided that we would be friends and 18 years later, here, we are.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But I think knowing who we are and how that works into building community is helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And that's going to be different for every personality type, but I know for you and I and I say this to encourage those who might be nervous to do likewise but might want to being direct in friendship building has often been for us one of the best routes. I know I've made some really good friends just by going up to them and being like you seem really cool. Can we get coffee and they're like I'm cool? Of course I want to get coffee with someone who thinks I'm cool and I'm like I know you do. Let's go.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, and I think I think often when we're kids you know out on the playground that's often how we make friends and as adults we forget that sometimes the simple way is best. You know it could. Just we could save ourselves so much time, right.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Well, you brought up kids. We've been talking about community a lot, but we need to move on for the Proverbs 31. You mentioned kids out on the playground, so let's talk about the Proverbs 31 woman's children. One trap that we've seen both ancient and modern cultures fall into is equating womanhood with mothering, or measuring a woman's value by her children. Elise top quiz how many verses in Proverbs 31 talk about the woman of valor's children? I think it's just one.
Elice Kilko:I think it might be two.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I think it's just one. It's just one. Do we see her doing any mothering in the entire passage?
Elice Kilko:No, not directly. I mean, we don't see her like she made breakfast and you know we don't see any direct actions.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So what do we see happening in regards to her children?
Elice Kilko:We see her, we actually see her kids' response we, then they're old enough to do so and, you know, self-aware enough to see their mom and see that she should be respected and should be lauded. Yeah, what do you think?
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yeah, I mean that is verse 28 is the one verse where we see children in this passage and they are. What we see them doing is blessing her. And now this can be really painful because some women have poured out their entire lives and their children for whatever reason. Maybe mom had some culpability in this, maybe not. Society likes to blame everything on mom. I don't think that is fair as a mom. Society likes to blame everything on mom. I don't think that is fair as a mom. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's completely warranted, but sometimes not. Children are their own beings and they can make their own choices, and so this verse can be very painful because some children grow up and they don't appreciate their mothers. But one thing is, as you said, verse 28 is talking about old enough children. It's probably talking about teens or adults. I mean, I remember growing up. I did not appreciate my mother much until I was in my 20s.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I had to be old enough to be like, oh, oh, my goodness, she's actually a pretty incredible woman. But when I was like a kid and a teen it was just like, oh, mom, I couldn't see her for who she was. I just saw her as an inconvenience or my not very cool mom or whatever. And so these children that are calling her blessed are old enough to act with discernment and value their mother. Yeah, that's true.
Jessica LM Jenkins:In one of the commentaries Waltke said in passing reference to her sons, the Hebrew. There is not children, it's sons, which could include daughters. But it's more significant when we think it has to include at least one son. The passing reference to her sons Waltke says it is unclear whether many siblings or more than one generation is in view, but in the conclusion it suggests that this wife finds fulfillment less in giving birth to sons and raising them to maturity than in maximizing her opportunities on behalf of her husband who, with her sons, now arise presumably in her presence to symbolize their respect for her In this time period. The one who is respected sat down. Other people stood up, so in verse 28, it talks about how her husband and son stand up to speak forth words praising her. They rise in her presence and they're not praising her because she's a good mom, though she probably was, or they wouldn't be, but she has earned accommodation by her character and her whole life, not just mothering.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's key Because in our culture, especially in the complementarian spaces we've discussed, they sometimes value motherhood above everything else a woman does, to the point where I've heard women older women, as they get older and their kids age and move out of the house, bemoan their life. There is one woman I can think of who is like my kids are grown. I feel like the Lord should just take me home now, because I have no purpose now that my kids are out of the house. They have so wrapped up their life in being that hands-on mom that they have no other conception of womanhood outside of mothering. Is mothering a huge part of a woman's life who God grants the gift of being a mother? Absolutely, and it should be. But it can't be the only aspect, to the point that when our kids graduate high school, we're like I'm done Take me home, lord. There has to be more than mothering and grandmothering and we see that here in Proverbs 31.
Elice Kilko:Yeah, I've definitely heard that sentiment voiced as well in circles that I've been in, and I love looking at the example of women who have become more involved as they've become empty nesters in their community, so that they've taken that mothering aspect, everything they've learned, and now that their kids have flown away they direct that mothering outward then into the community. And I think that that's so beautiful, because then you get to see all of that come together, the experience that they've had over their life, and now turn it out to their community.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And I love that. And I've also seen women who don't, who their kids grow up and they're just kind of like, okay, now I can just do my little hobbies and hang out and coast the remainder of my day. I did my work, my kids are raised and now I'm done and I don't think that's the picture we have here in Proverbs 31. She is active in building community, as we talked about. Women in the ancient world were often building sustenance reliance communities. The women built these networks where they relied on each other. Somebody's husband is sick? Okay, we got to give them some extra food. I'm going to send my teenage sons to go help in their field or with their sheep, or you know. I providing portions for her maidens and giving things to those who are in need is she's helping feed this in many ways, women-centered community they have that helps everybody in the village and the town thrive.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And she's using her position and her age the fact that we don't see her in this passage having to spend a lot of time grinding grain or chasing toddlers or doing those things that are very hands-on, time-intensive. She can build a business to employ people in the community. She can buy a vineyard to give all of those families, jobs. She is actively working for those around her and we don't know what stages of the life that the woman of valor invested in her many projects. We have to remember this is kind of as you said at the beginning of the show, an end of life.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Look back at what she has done. This is not all of her projects necessarily that she's doing while she has three kids under the age of five. She is now a queen, a wealthy woman with help, with privilege, with finances, that is able to forecast the needs of her community and meet some of those needs through her business exploits, while building connection in the community. And at the end of her life, her husband and her sons rather than complementarians, which are like the woman, doesn't have any aims outside her home and should just focus there alone. Dorothy Patterson I paraphrase Her husband and sons don't look at her and say why did you spend all this time focusing on things outside of the home? Why did you benefit our whole community and not just us? No, they stand up and are like we praise this. This is beautiful. Can you read verse 31 for?
Elice Kilko:us. Yes, proverbs 31, 31. Give her the reward of her labor and let her works praise her at the city gates.
Jessica LM Jenkins:As Paul instructs women to be known by their good works, in 1 Timothy, the woman of valor is praised by her deeds.
Jessica LM Jenkins:This woman's actions on behalf of her family and community are lauded in the highest offices of the land. The gates is where the elders and the big mucky mucks met, so she's literally being repaid in honor for what she has done. And this is an honor-shame culture. And I think this is really significant because there are so many studies, and I'm trying to remember who wrote a whole article on it. It may have been Jen Wilkin, who was talking about women in Southern Baptist churches because she's Southern Baptist who don't get paid for their labor Not that we do everything for financial remuneration, but that is one way to honor someone in today's cultures to pay them a worthy wage. And she wrote an article talking about how most women's ministers are unpaid, or, if they are paid, they're paid a fraction of what a male minister is paid, and how today we often don't give women the honor. We have one sermon on Mother's Day honoring women, which is often Proverbs 31, which is interesting because it doesn't talk about mothering at all, it's just talking about praising women. So let's praise them.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But this idea that women should be valued either. They should be remunerated with honor, which is a higher currency than money. They didn't necessarily have cash money in the Woman of Valor Society, but honor was still a higher currency than physical goods Renumerated for their efforts, honored for their efforts. Renumerated for their efforts, honored for their efforts. And it's easy for us to sit here and say, yes, women should be honored, but I also want to remind all of us that we can be the first and foremost to do that for the women around us. I would love it if the men in our homes and churches were like we have to make honoring women a priority. God would love it if men did that and any men listening. This is your challenge to do that, but I think most of the listeners are probably female. We're female, so I want to challenge us directly that we can do that too and, rather than a culture of competition among women, we can create a community of honoring each other.
Elice Kilko:And where we lift each other up, just as the Proverbs 31 woman did to those in her community? Absolutely. What about the woman of valor and who she is as a person and her voice?
Jessica LM Jenkins:Let's talk about that. Would you read verses 21 and 22 for us?
Elice Kilko:Verses 21 and 22. She is not afraid for her household when it snows, for all in her household are doubly clothed. She makes her own bed coverings. Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So we see here that she, of course she owns a fancy textile export business, so she's dressing her family probably with some of the goods she has made for her fancy textile export business. She is extremely talented and gifted in creating clothing and she's dressing her family accordingly and she's dressing her family accordingly. She's also likely a very high class noblewoman and so she's dressing her family according to her station. In the ancient world. The idea of personal fashion. They had no idea what personal fashion was. There was not personal fashion. Today we have personal fashion. I am a rather bohemian dresser. I like kind of fringy, frilly, kind of bohemian-esque Glowy.
Elice Kilko:Glowy.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's my personal fashion. Other people like different sorts of things.
Elice Kilko:Yeah. So what do the garments of the woman of valor then indicate from your?
Jessica LM Jenkins:studies. They indicate her station. She is dressing appropriately for royalty or a high, noble woman, and dressing appropriately for your station brings honor to your family. So this isn't just personal expression. This is understanding her place in society and acting appropriately. Therefore, it would be like the president's wife coming to appearances in sweatpants, like you're never going to see any president's wife in sweatpants ever. She dresses appropriately to her station and so that's what we see the woman of valor doing here.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yes, she is caring for herself appropriately. She's investing time in the way she looks and everything else because it brings honor to her family and it's appropriate for where she's at. But she's not doing this out of vanity or trying to make much of herself, which the scriptural text also talks against repeatedly. In the New Testament it says don't let your beauty be fine pearls and fine clothing. Because Roman women were doing these elaborate, super elaborate hairstyles with like pearls sewn into their hair and lots of gold jewelry, just because, again, it's not personal expression, it's showing off their wealth. And so here she's selling these garments, so she's wearing them as part of the sales and she's dressing according to her station, out of respect for her husband and her community.
Elice Kilko:So it comes down a lot to appropriateness and motive, Exactly so. You know, there's gym clothes and there's business clothes and there are clothes you wear to the formal gala. And wear the right clothes to the right event is basically what you're saying.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yes, and in their culture, certain classes of people, they had a much more class oriented society than we do. Certain classes of people wore certain clothing and certain classes didn't, and so you needed to dress according to your station, your station, your class. If you overdressed, that was dishonoring to your family. If you underdressed, that was dishonoring to your family and it's an honor shame culture. So you need your whole family is impacted by what you wear. It's not just oh, elise, that's a cute blouse. I really like your self-expression. You're like oh yes, hubbing birds are my favorite, so I got hummingbirds on my blouse, you know it's not that at all.
Elice Kilko:Yeah.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yeah, so look at verse 25 and 30 for me.
Elice Kilko:Okay. Verse 25 says strength and honor are her clothing and she can laugh at the time to come. I love this verse. Verse 30, charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord will be praised. This verse, for me personally, was super triggering because it was the basis of like charm courses back in the 90s, and I'm sure that it's just been twisted a million ways. So I would love to hear your thoughts on both of these verses.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Verse 25,. She is clothed with strength and dignity. She can laugh at the days to come. I've heard this twisted, that women shouldn't care about clothing, they shouldn't care about how they look, that shouldn't matter to you.
Jessica LM Jenkins:You should just be focused on your character which isn't the case, because we see her dressing appropriately, taking great care to care about how she's dressing, but she's clothed with strength and dignity. Her aura, the way she carries herself, is appropriate for what she's doing and who she is. She laughs at the day to come. She speaks with wisdom that's the next verse and faithful instruction is on her tongue. So you get this image of a woman who is not only physically put together appropriately, she's mentally put together. She's not flighty, she's not worried, she's not all over the place. She has wisdom and insight for both today and the future, and a little bit of cockiness.
Elice Kilko:The whole lack of she's like emotionally prepared for the hurricane that's off the coast.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And she's prepared enough. She could even have a little bit of a bring it on Like I got this, you don't intimidate me. And so this, this woman, these things, the word. She is clothed with strength and dignity. These are as obvious characteristics about her as her purple garments. You notice somebody in the store the first time it's like, oh, the guy in the red sweater in the back. All you can see is their clothes. But for her, for someone who knows her, strength and dignity and wisdom and an ability to forecast the future, understand it and deal with it are as obvious characteristics of her life as her clothing. It's not pitting clothing against character. It's saying her character is as obvious as her clothing.
Elice Kilko:That's a really important distinction. So it's almost the whole laugh at the future comment in the Bible. It's almost what you're saying is it's a fearlessness of what's to come. Is that what you're saying?
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's how I often interpret the phrase. She gazes towards the future with a confidence born of preparation and character development. She is ready, she's not intimidated.
Jessica LM Jenkins:She also fears the Lord and knows that he is in charge of the future, and so she can laugh at the future because the future has no power. God has the power. She fears the Lord, not the future. That's really key. It's easy to get caught up in what about the future and it's easy to ruminate and worry and think about these things and feel anxiety and I'm not saying she never felt those things.
Jessica LM Jenkins:And if you're listening and you're like, wow, worry and anxiety are really. Those are really big themes in my life and you're especially if you're starting to feel shame about that. I want you to pause and I have several episodes on Philippians maybe several, maybe one. I have to go back and look. I have at least one episode on Philippians 4, and the do not be anxious. So go back and listen to that episode as well, because I think that will really help you understand God's heart for those who are anxious. Some people are more naturally inclined to not have anxiety, to be able to plan ahead, and that seems to be what the Proverbs 31 woman does, partly because she is wise, she is exercising wisdom, but in exercising wisdom, she's able to see possible problems, which is where a lot of our anxiety comes from. We can see possible things that happen. She is responding to those wisely and she's able to trust the Lord more than her emotions. Mm-hmm, that's really, really important to trust the Lord more than her emotions.
Elice Kilko:That's really, really important. How do you think that this relates to? How does the proverbs 31 woman? You know it talks about her wearing purple, which would have been a very beautiful thing. So can we talk about what we can learn about beauty from the proverbs 31 woman? Because in our day and age, beauty and, you know, staying young and all of that it's such a focus today. What do you think we can learn from Proverbs 31 about beauty Like actual physical, beauty, like the character is super important, but let's talk about like actual physical beauty.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I think you said verse 30 is triggering to you and I want to hear about that. But it says charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting. I think first we have to own that Our culture is obsessed with staying beautiful. There are like 10, 12-year-olds who are obsessed with their skin routine because they're afraid of aging at 11. Yeah, I am finding as I age that beauty really is a young woman's game, and I say this as almost 40. I'll be 40 in June, so at least for me.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I am finding all the like 50 year olds are like Jessica, you're still so young anybody older is like okay, my, my husband and I have an age gap marriage, so I could never be like I'm so old, because he just like passed me on my head like I'm a toddler, I'm like I know, but I still feel old.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I'm almost 40. But at the ripe old age of almost 40, I am very much aware that a younger woman in her 20s will always be, from here on out, and probably for the last several years will always be more of a head turner than I will. If we're talking about just physical beauty, I'm out of the competition against 20-year-olds and have been for a while, and that's okay. Beauty is fleeting in some ways. But I think there's a deeper lesson here that we see echoed throughout all of scripture, and I really want to emphasize this my faith and my body show the signs of age, pain, trauma, neglect, living in a sinful world. Yeah, I find passages like this to be even more meaningful as my physical beauty starts to fade.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Scripture never decries a woman being physically beautiful. We see all sorts of women in the Bible whose beauty was a great asset for them. But it offers us hope beyond beauty, and I feel like this is a lesson I had a glimmer of when I was at my peak in my 20s, that now I'm starting to understand even more. There's a hope beyond physical beauty. It points us to a beauty that is more breathtaking. Beauty and charm are singled out in verse 30, because so many of us are swayed by them. We want to hang out with the attractive, young, popular, well-known, beautiful people. The beautiful people on Instagram do a lot better often than the less beautiful people.
Elice Kilko:It's sales.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So we seek to add those qualities to our resumes so that we can succeed, so that we can have community, because we think if I'm pretty, people will like me. Proverbs quickly reminds us that we need something more and something deeper. We need something that takes a lifetime to cultivate. Real beauty takes time. There is the beauty of a young woman, a teenager, a woman in her 20s who's just coming into maturity, and they are gorgeous and that's amazing and they should be.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But as I sit and I think about Proverbs 31, it doesn't describe a young, beautiful woman, but an elderly matron with gray hair, a slightly hunched back, a woman who has gazed steadfastly through the years, applying wisdom to her circumstances and resting in the Lord. She is a woman who has earned her beauty, Her beauty. You might not look at her and think, wow, she's gorgeous, though you might. I know some women who are 70 and you're like, wow, you're still gorgeous. It's a different beauty than the 20-year-old, but she still has it. But the women I think of in my community, in my church, who are the most beautiful if I just sit there and feel vibes, I know that sounds really woo-woo, but when I sit there and think about it the women who are most gorgeous are not the hot young 20-year-olds who are very picture-perfect, pretty.
Jessica LM Jenkins:They're picture-perfect, pretty and they are nice to look at. But the women who are beautiful are 65, 70-year-old women who have suffered, who have extensive trauma, who have walked with the Lord through the heartbreak of losing children, either to death or abandonment of the faith. And these are the women pouring into those around them and trusting the Lord and speaking out with wisdom, and they are beautiful.
Elice Kilko:That's really amazing. I agree so much with that. That really resonates with me and I've always wanted to be that lady with the white hair who's, like, still very put together and beautiful, even as she has, you know, gray, graying hair. And I think it's really interesting. You know, we learn this and we see this so vividly in Proverbs 31. And I think it's so interesting that even in the world there are pockets of grace where we see people noticing the truth of this. I do not remember exactly where I saw this quote, but it has caught my attention and it stayed with me.
Elice Kilko:It was, I think it, like a nineties supermodel talking about a conversation she had with her mom, because she was, you know, she was the hot young thing and she was on, you know, the catwalk, and as she got older then of course she wasn't, and so she had this conversation with the mom, and it was an article that I read, and she talked about how her mom told her to not be afraid of the wrinkles and the white hairs that would come, because her mom the quote was I, I earned my face, or you know that the wrinkles that she had, the you know stretch marks, and all of that came from what she had been through, and that that in and of itself, was also beauty.
Elice Kilko:And so, even if she wasn't on the catwalk, there was a beauty to be seen, and I thought that that was so incredible that even when you're not looking at the Bible, the created world can still see glimmers of this. You see it in the National Geographic pictures of, you know, the people that live to be over a hundred, with all their wrinkles, but yet they have, you know, wisdom in their eyes. You look at them and they are beautiful. You know, not the catwalk beauty, but yet they have, you know, wisdom in their eyes. You look at them and they are beautiful. You know, not the catwalk beauty, but there is a crazy, you know, just something that really catches your eye about that, and I think that that we can see that here too.
Jessica LM Jenkins:There's a there's scripture offers us a beauty that takes a lifetime to cultivate, and I think that's something that young women especially have a hard time grappling with. I remember being teenager 20 and these verses were hard because I was pretty. That was when I was at my prettiest and it's like well, but I want to be beautiful. You know, especially as a teenager, that was really important. I need to be physically pretty. Now I'm old enough. I'm like, okay, I could try really hard and I'm still not going to match a 20-year-old, and I'm okay with that.
Jessica LM Jenkins:But understanding that God offers women a beauty that takes a lifetime to cultivate, that it is possible to become more pretty, more beautiful, and that it's not something that has to fade. Verse 30 says Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting. Talking about the skin you're going to age, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. She's going to have something more as she walks with God. He's offering greater beauty as she gets closer to him, because God is the most beautiful, he is the author of beauty. So as we get nearer to him, over a longer period of time, that beauty rubs off. I really want to emphasize, for those who are listening, because I think there are a lot who are. I think there are many women who, as they get to a certain age, start giving up on beauty. It's easy to be like beauty is a young woman's game and I want to encourage us that we don't have to chase the latest skincare fads to try to keep the wrinkles away. I mean, if you want to do a skincare routine, that's fine, go for it.
Elice Kilko:But you don't have to.
Jessica LM Jenkins:It's okay to let yourself wrinkle, it's okay to let yourself gray, it's okay to not be in the absolute latest fashion. There is a beauty that endures and it's not dependent on wrinkles and hair color and fashion, and that's not something I even could understand when I was a teen or in your 20s.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I had a tiny glimmer of it, but I couldn't understand it and I don't think I understand it now, like I will in 20, 30, 40 more years, so we can come back to this conversation in 40 years, yeah, but I want to offer that hope and that encouragement that God offers. God offers an enduring beauty, because beauty is important to him, but that beauty isn't wrapped up solely in the beauty of a young person, and part of the reason the woman of valor is so beautiful is because she fears the Lord, as we've talked about, but also her wisdom. We see, she is in many ways a type of wisdom. Some say this entire passage is about lady wisdom. So we see the woman of valor in verse 28, not 28. What is it? 26., not 28. What is it?
Elice Kilko:26. So we see the woman of valor in verse 26 teaching. Would you read that verse for us? Yes, verse 26,. You said Her mouth speaks. Wisdom and loving instruction is on her tongue.
Jessica LM Jenkins:So the woman of valor is known for her teaching. A matriarch had a social role for carrying on oral traditions and helping the younger generations, both male and female, do what is right. We see here that she teaches wisdom. The Hebrew word wisdom here implies, and throughout the entire book of Proverbs implies, skill in technical matters, expertise, knowledge of right living, and in the book of Proverbs wisdom is contrasted with foolishness or anti-wisdom. And wisdom often in the Old Testament is a woman's domain. All throughout the Old Testament wisdom is linked to women specifically, which is really an interesting peek into their culture and the role of women in that culture. So here we see her teaching, speaking wisdom to those around her.
Elice Kilko:And in Proverbs, all throughout Proverbs, we see wisdom personified as a woman.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Exactly so. She teaches wisdom and she also teaches law. The Hebrew word here for law is Torah, and our first thought when we hear Torah is the Mosaic law. But it can also mean general teaching. Either way, the woman's word is to be considered law of some kind, Torah of some kind, whether Mosaic Torah or practical wisdom, you are to take it seriously. You don't blow her off. Oh, it's just an old wives tale. No, you listen to her wisdom and her Torah.
Elice Kilko:Listen to the words of your mother. You see that. So much throughout Proverbs.
Jessica LM Jenkins:She's teaching chesed, which is a Hebrew word often translated loving, kindness or covenant faithfulness. But this isn't a gentle, emotional word. This word has backbone. It is often translated love, mercy or kindness, but chesed carries with it the idea of relational faithfulness, spurred on by one's mercy, love and covenant promises. Elise, what are some real-life examples of what Chesed looks or feels like?
Elice Kilko:Okay, I've talked about her on this podcast before, but my Aunt Didi, who was one of our coworkers in Brazil, a lady who was single all of her life, she would take me with her to go to tea and learn how to make European hot chocolate with survivors from World War II who had been through the Holocaust.
Elice Kilko:These were Jewish seniors, often living alone, who were shut-ins.
Elice Kilko:She would take me with her and we would either just sometimes I mean it wasn't just about a Bible study, sometimes she never opened the Bible but just visiting them, hearing their story I cannot tell you how many times I heard the stories of how awful the things that these people had been through and just seeing my aunt D, who was no blood relative but so much by love, seeing her hold space for the pain that they went through and loving them through that pain and then celebrating with them the life that they could have now you know that they could teach us how to make European hot chocolate, like they had done in Hungary when they were five.
Elice Kilko:And you know admiring the crochet doilies that they had made and smuggled out of their one suitcase that they were allowed to bring. You know, listening to the story, like we talked earlier about, with curiosity, without judgment, allowing the big feelings to sit, that feeling, the hurt with them. Just, I think that that is such a beautiful picture of Chesed holding that kindness and that love and also decrying the injustices that were done. You know, as you listened to that story.
Jessica LM Jenkins:Yeah, that's beautiful. When I think of Chesed, I think of love with a backbone, love that doesn't give up. I think of a spouse walking through cancer with their spouse. They could say this is too hard and walk away. Their spouse has lost physical ability, lost physical beauty. They're not able to give much in return. But it's because of chesed, it's because of covenant, faithful love, that they continue. They do not give up. And this is the type of love God has for us. It is that grit love that never stops.
Jessica LM Jenkins:When the feelings are gone. Chesed stills there when you're tired of this and you're just fed up. Chesed is what keeps you in that rough marriage. Chesed is what keeps you during the hard times. It's so much deeper than just the emotion of love.
Elice Kilko:So what would you say is significant, then, about the words specifically Torah and Chesed being used together in this verse, then Proverbs 31,.
Jessica LM Jenkins:26 is the only place in the Old Testament where Torah and Chesed are used together in this way In Deuteronomy 5 and 7, they have some similar usages, but this is the only place they're used together like this and it describes a woman's teaching, which I think is really beautiful. Many translations interpret this phrase as kind instruction, or I think you said loving teaching or something like that, but that translation loses some of the depth that each word carries. The woman of valor isn't simply teaching nicely, which I feel like, is how it's off, like the English kind of gives that vibe like just a nice teacher like a kindergarten teacher.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That's not it at all. Here she is drawing on the depth of wisdom in the entire book of Proverbs and the covenantal fear of the Lord found in the Mosaic law, so that her teaching isn't just about handicrafts or housekeeping, but it's about how one walks with God and lives according to his best way in the face of adversity, when the going gets tough. This is how you keep going, like Lady Wisdom, the woman of valor uses her voice to point her community and her family to the Lord with strength and power, using both his word married to practical advice to point them where they need to go.
Jessica LM Jenkins:That is so beautiful. So then, what can we learn about how God values women from this passage? There are a bunch we can learn from the verses we've looked at today. One, not in any particular order, just kind of the way we went through.
Jessica LM Jenkins:God loves it when women with resources and power use their privilege and ability to care for others. The kingdom of God values those who serve others. In the Old Testament law we see God continually showing that he desires His people to care for the poor, needy, widows, orphans, sojourners, disabled, refugees, immigrants, etc. In the New Testament, the apostles write often about caring for the poor and the needy, which indicates, in that culture, the disabled and the immigrants and the refugees. Those are the ones they have in mind. Secondly, god values the contributions of women both inside and outside motherhood. He loves it when women are loving wives and mothers, but he never limits women to mothering or nurturing roles. God likes it when women work hard for their communities and God likes it when women are honored for their good works.
Jessica LM Jenkins:God loves beauty in women. He offers us something beyond physical attractiveness. Proverbs 31 is a beautiful, fearless, wise, winsome, merciful and kind old woman, and there's a beauty there that can't be matched by a young woman. The way God's word takes and shapes a heart and forms her further into his image, sanctifying every part of her soul, creates a stunning beauty that young women can't hold a candle to. God loves it when women teach Amen.
Jessica LM Jenkins:A woman's voice is not anathema to men's ears. A woman's voice is not dangerous. A woman's voice is not inherently going to lead someone to sin. God calls women to share his world and his gospel boldly in their communities. Share his world and his gospel boldly in their communities. We should not be silent because of our gender and people should not stop listening to us because of our gender.
Jessica LM Jenkins:As with any other activity, we may need to limit when and how we teach to appropriate time and place, but God loves it when women use their voices to teach scripture and practical knowledge, especially wedded together for the good of the hearer. God loves women. Proverbs 31 is not a passage talking about what a woman should be or what she should do. Proverbs 31 is not a passage that is a checklist for what a woman should do. Proverbs 31 is a passage I believe is divinely inspired by God to showcase specific things God delights in, as seen in a representational culture and time period. If Proverbs 31 was written about a woman today, it would look very different. But God loves women, he values women and Proverbs 31 showcases that beautifully to the world.
Elice Kilko:So I think that we've learned so much and I think that from here we can go out and love our families and love our community and listen to the stories not only of those in our community but even in our home, loving our kids with patience and approaching them with kindness, the kindness that God shows us. Go out and be, then, the representation of God in our families, as somebody who wants to be like Jesus and wants to reflect him and aspire then to be this awesome Proverbs 31 woman when we are old and gray.
Jessica LM Jenkins:I love that. Well, thank you, Elise, for doing this Proverbs 31 series with me. I have so appreciated it. Thank you to everyone in the audience who has listened and taken time to walk through this passage with us. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May his face shine upon you and give you peace. We will see you next time.
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