030 Bathsheba, Power, And A Better Hermeneutic - Interview with Liz Daye

Bathsheba’s story has been trimmed into a tidy cautionary tale for far too long. We open the text back up with hospital chaplain and theologian Liz Day to confront the real dynamics at work: power, consent, silence, and the cost borne by survivors when churches protect kings and blame women. Starting with how Bathsheba is framed from pulpits and commentaries, we unpack the myths—like “lust made him do it”—and trace how Scripture itself reads the moment through Torah ethics and Nathan’s parable, where the stolen lamb mirrors the life-altering harm Bathsheba endures.

Together, we ask better hermeneutical questions: Where is God in this text? What is God like? We notice God’s refusal to endorse abuse, God’s prophet confronting a king, and Scripture’s pattern of letting survivors like Tamar speak. We challenge the popular use of Psalm 51 as a shortcut back to platform, naming why confession without justice, repair, and power relinquished is not repentance. From there, we move into practice: how to become trauma-informed communities that believe disclosures, make space for lament, and choose presence over platitudes. We talk about sharing power, setting real limits on leadership, empowering survivors, and reshaping discipleship at the grassroots so children learn a truer story—one where righteousness and justice belong together.

If you’ve wrestled with David and Bathsheba, sensed a disconnect in how the story is preached, or wondered how churches can genuinely be safe for the wounded, this conversation offers language, tools, and hope. Listen, share with a friend who needs it, and then tell us: what one change would make your community safer for survivors? Subscribe, leave a review, and keep the conversation going.

Get the PDF download: “Evidence That Bathsheba’s Story Is Rape, Not Adultery.” Link in the episode description and on our website

Chapters

• 1:12 Welcome And Series Context
• 1:38 Introducing Liz Day And Her Work
• 2:50 How Bathsheba Is Taught In Churches
• 5:47 Commentary Traditions And Blame
• 11:45 Power, Consent, And Torah Violations
• 16:48 Nathan’s Parable And Survivor Impact
• 21:09 Patterns Of Abuse In David’s Reign
• 26:14 God’s Role, Silence, And Standards
• 31:24 Exposing Darkness And Real Repentance
• 36:56 Lust Myth vs Power Dynamics
• 41:34 Rereading Samuel Without Hero Worship
• 46:33 Prioritizing The Vulnerable In Church
• 52:44 Grassroots Change And Hermeneutics
• 58:34 Learning To Ask Better Questions

Transcript

Jessica LM Jenkins: 0:48

Welcome back to our mini-series on Bathsheba. If you missed it, our last episode, we walked through 2 Samuel 11 and 12, thinking through the account from Bathsheba's perspective, really diving into the Hebrew, seeing what's going on there, and answering the big question: was this rape or was this adultery? If you want the nitty-gritty details on all of that, check out the last episode. This episode, I have the wonderful Liz Day with me today, and we are going to be just talking together and processing through alongside all of you the ramifications of Bathsheba's story, especially considering how it's been taught throughout church history and in our local churches today. Liz is an autistic hospital chaplain. She is a writer, a teacher, and a caregiver with a passion for accessible theology and relationship-based discipleship. She's currently pursuing her doctorate of ministry in theology at Northern Seminary. Woo-hoo! And her first book, this is so exciting, Interwoven Discipleship, will release in 2026. So be looking for Liz Day Interwoven Discipleship. She is also co-authoring a biblical studies book on the Davidic Kingdom, which is why I invited her today for Brazos Press. And that will be available in 2027. So you have a lot to look forward to in regards to Liz and what she is authoring. Liz, it is so great to have you. Thank you so much. It's so nice to be here. So as we are talking about Bathsheba, this is a loaded story. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Liz Daye: 2:34

I'll bring you speed. I I know there's so many directions that we could even just start because you hear the name Bathsheba and you already have a sense of something. Yeah. That name already holds some meaning for so many people, right?

Jessica LM Jenkins: 2:52

It does. And in some cases, I think it even holds some trauma. Yeah. Um I've had lots of women in my DMs um talking about how Bathsheba has been taught in their local churches. Yeah. How pastors make jokes at her expense and the whole congregation's laughing at this woman who was sexually abused by a man in power that the church then reverences. Yeah. And for, especially for sexual abuse victims in our churches, that is really hard to wrestle with. So, Liz, what is your experience of being taught the Bathsheba story as you were growing up in college, seminary? Um, are there any particular teachings or moments that stand out to you?

Liz Daye: 3:35

Oh goodness. I mean, this is a story that we've all grown up hearing because it's taught as David's big, like, whoopsie-doodle moment for a whole lot of people. They're like, David's a man after God's own heart, but he did this bad thing one time and then it was fine. The end. Like that's that's how the story is kind of given to us, especially as children, right? We want to sanitize the story. We want to um make it a little bit more palatable for kids and try to understand. So even the way that we communicate the story is often like, well, David stole another man's wife. Um, we we don't necessarily talk about the rape and the sexual assault. Um, but then we get a version of the story that's not true. And it's not true to those of us that maybe didn't have the language to know how to identify our own sexual assault until years and decades later, which is the case for many evangelical women.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 4:31

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 4:31

Um so I think it's really important that we talk about how you know trauma is a lens through which we view everything else. It's something that doesn't go away after it happens. We carry it with us, we view the world through that lens. So when a pastor comes on stage or a pulpit and makes a joke and says something to the effect of, I just love David. He's my favorite person in the entire world, he's the best. And yeah, he messed up this one time, but at least Bathsheba got to be queen. Like usually they'll say something like that, or they'll say, but she was just so beautiful, and you know, David just couldn't help himself. They make all of these, like all of these justifications for day, and most of those justifications wind up blaming Bathsheba for David's attention. Every single time. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 5:26

Yep. And just hearing you describe all that, my body is reacting. I'm sure our audience is feeling that too, just in our chests or shoulders. It's just that ah, the the women blame part of that. Um, women in my DMs were talking about how um Bathsheba is told that she was seducing David, that she was trying for this. One pastor was even preaching that her goal was to get pregnant by David. That was her plan. Yeah. And I mean, I remember when I was in Bible college, one of my professors was he was making a joke about how women always know when somebody can see them. So of course, Bathsheba knew that David could see her. So of course it was on purpose and had the whole class laughing. And I didn't know any better, you know, back then, 20 something years ago. But now it stands out to me as how there's this huge normal normal normalization of normalization of men sexually mistreating women, women being blamed, and the man's culpability being passed off and ignored.

Liz Daye: 6:46

Yeah. And it really is something that's codified at every single level of these different commentaries that are looking through the story. Because and I was just exploring a few of them before we got on the air together, because one of the most widely used ones at my seminary that everybody goes to is like this is the one that's like free and accessible and really good quality, says, you know, it wasn't morally wrong for David to inquire about who this woman was that, you know, he had David the married dude, David the David the super married dude, uh like eight times married dude, staring at this house that he knows is like these are his military commanders, like and his buddies. Yeah, his book his buddies. And then he's told explicitly, no, like he he's given this woman's like information is like, okay, this is her father, this is her husband. That should be like a double indication that like she's like super duper off limits.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 7:44

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 7:45

That's what the tells us. So even just to have these things in commentaries that you know, perhaps Bathsheba wasn't totally innocent. You put that in a commentary.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 7:56

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 7:56

And then you give it to seminary students that are gonna be future pastors and are gonna preach this topic, and they're gonna go to that commentary. And they're immediately gonna have this position where they can blame women. Maybe, I don't know, probably, yes, the Bible said, and they'll say, like, yes, God never blames Bathsheba. Yes, the authors of scripture never blame but and they always put a little but in there because men are going to want to protect men. And I know that that sounds kind of harsh, but there's this training um kind of ingrained that especially in our seminaries, like especially in our seminaries.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 8:42

Like the the way I have seen men, even men close to me, um, not my husband, I am gonna say that straight up. Yes, um, but other men very close to me, even in my family, excuse the sin of men in power and be okay with putting such men continually in positions of power, um because they like this, that, or the other thing about the guy. And so women's bodies taking care of women, even though they claim to be complementary and protectors, isn't really their priority. Yeah. And that is something women are constantly grappling with, even if it's not fully conscious, it's something you have to consider. The same Bible college where the professor was talking about, well, women always know when they can be seen. One of my friends was molested and told it was her fault. Yeah.

unknown: 9:42

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 9:43

I mean, it it imbues a culture that makes women unsafe. Yeah. And so, Liz, for you, how do you begin to process the church's mishandling of this text and the cultural narrative we have around this story?

Liz Daye: 10:02

I mean, I think it begins with those of us who are in the text and studying the text and love the Bible very much. Because that comes up too. Like we have a very high view of scripture and we love God very, very much. Um, but sifting what is cultural, what has been passed down to us through art and through pop culture and through all of these different things. And what does the text actually say? Um what is God affirming in the text? What is the voice of what's happening, right? Um, because there's a lot of things happening in the text that God doesn't agree with and that are not in line with what God has said, like this is God's goodness. Um so being able to say, like, this is God's standard, this is not in alignment with that, and this is why. And having the language to speak to that, and people who are using scripture to interpret scripture, that's a really good starting place. The more women that do that, the better. Um the more women in power and the more women that are you know helping make decisions that can better the culture and the environment for everybody, that's a good thing.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 11:18

Absolutely.

Liz Daye: 11:19

Yeah, that would that would be a starting place. Um typically, okay, so I'm thinking like typically when a pastor is gonna preach about David, they're gonna preach about you know David's big sin against Bathsheba, or they don't even say that. They just say like he had an affair with her, but then there's a three-step, five-step, how do you, you know, make it right, feel better, go along with your ministry. And there are books like this that are published. But and they sell a lot because men really like the idea of like, okay, how can I fix it and then just go along and make things better. The problem is when they do this, they're gonna go to Psalm 51. That's famous, like confession psalm of what happens. And even if you're looking through this with a trauma-informed lens, if you're looking at this psychologically, David doesn't have the best sense of his own self when he's making this confession. He never once realizes, oh, I sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah. I sinned against people. He never owns that at this point in the profession. Then he goes on and he says, you know, um, and you know, he's praying and he's praying, and pretty please um do not take your Holy Spirit from me because he took the Holy Spirit from Saul, that was his predecessor. Please don't take my power away like you did to the restore me to the joy of your salvation, sustain me with a willing spirit. Then now he's negotiating, then I'm going to teach other dudes like me your ways, and sinners will be totally converted and returned to you. So this is gonna be this will be fine. We'll make this work. This is David selling this um bartering, negotiating thing, and then evangelical men make this their template. The problem is that there's no justice for victims of abuse and harm anywhere in here, their voices aren't here. Um, there's no restoration to wholeness, and there's no accountability. Yeah. So we need to be honest about when the Bible is saying this is what happened, this is what God affirms.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 13:37

Yeah. Absolutely. And just to piggyback on everything you're saying, to really look at the effect events have on the survivors. As I've been meditating on the passage, um it just really struck me that when Nathan comes to David and he gives him the parable about the lamb, Bathsheba is the lamb. And God subtly, but very clearly, is making a statement that sexual harm against Bathsheba is similar to death. She will never be the same person again. Who she was before is dead. David killed that. Yes, she's still physically alive, but sexual harm against another image bearer is life killing of who they were before. They will never return to that person. And God recognizes that. We see Nathan present that to David, and it completely goes over David's head, it goes over the rabbi's head, it goes over most people's heads. But we see God recognizing that in the middle of the situation, and we have to be able to pause and see the survivors and who they are, because it's not just Bathsheba, Uriah gets killed and a bunch of other dudes around him. Now there's not one widow, five, ten, fifteen, twenty widows. So many. So many, so many women that are harmed because of David's actions.

Liz Daye: 15:21

And if that wasn't clear, if that was maybe too ambiguous for you to say anything about keep reading, keep reading the Bible. Because when we have a high respect for the genre, which is you know narrative literature, a narrative way of viewing, we're gonna keep reading and we're gonna see this pattern emerge where again we have Tamar is now years down the road, David's is overtly raped by her brother, right? And we see David's response to that. Yeah. Oh, don't kill the rapist. Oh no. When as a father, he's owed something based on Torah law because of the injustice that was committed against her. And so even David's abdication of that and just saying, no big deal, we're getting a pattern that's not looking good. And even before this, we have a pattern of David in the text that's not looking good in regards to abuses of power. Like before they were violence against other countries, unnecessary, unnecessarily brutal violence against other surrounding nations. And now at the peak of the narrative, we see violence against women. And regardless of whether it was a violent encounter, it's still violence against a woman's body.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 16:45

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 16:45

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 16:47

Because she had no room for consent. She had no room for a voice. Yeah. Even if she had followed the Mosaic Law and did what a woman is supposed to do in the city when attacked by a man and she screamed, who's gonna come help her? It's the king. Yeah. Like there is nobody to help her. And so I think as we wrestle with this as the tr as a church, one thing we have to start with is to take a step back and look at our hermeneutic of how do we even begin to approach the text? Because so many of us grew up with moralistic Sunday school stories where the people in the Bible are presented to us as heroes. And that is the hermeneutic we are taught from children that David and Abraham are your heroes. No matter the fact that they're a rapist and a sex trafficker, but we're taught to see them as heroes as kids. So as adults, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance trying to take our childhood heroes and reconcile the fact that they are not a heroic figure, that they are not the hero. They are actually the anti-hero. They are the one harming the women in their lives.

Liz Daye: 18:01

Yeah. And again, this is what the text is telling us. We're not bringing anything from outside. This is what the text is saying, because for those of us that love the Bible with a high view of scripture, God is the hero of God's own story. Like point God is the main character, God is the hero, you know, Jesus rescues us from sin and suffering and harm. Um, so when we look at a passage like this and we say, you know, one of one of my guiding questions, whether I'm teaching little kids, whether I'm teaching seminary students, where is God in the text? And what is God like? Like those are your two things that you're kind of looking for. If you're in a confusing passage, you know, it doesn't really matter the genre. Where is God? God is silent in the story. God is not affirming anything that's happening. God is not saying this is good. Um, what is God like? Well, we know from the Torah that everything that David's doing here is wrong, wrong. And it's not just one Torah violation, you know, depending on who you're between seven and ten, just right here in this chapter, not counting the prior chapters. Um, and using that kind of Torah lens helps us say this is what is most important to God. These are God's priorities, this is God's standard for God's leaders, for God's people, um, for the people that represent God in the world. When there's disconnect, when there's you know discrepancy there, we need to name that.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 19:28

Yes.

Liz Daye: 19:29

Like, and and that's being honest about that instead of making excuses for the man in the power because we want the same power that he has, or the same, we don't want to give up our position in the pulpit. Right. Yeah. Um, we don't want to change our pornographied view of women around us, like all of these things. Um yeah, begin with just asking, what is God like? Where is God in the text? How does God and God is silent here, but again in Tamar's story, God lets Tamar speak.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 20:08

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 20:08

And so we see that literary like escalation almost to say this is what is supposed to happen, is that we're supposed to let survivors speak, have agency, help them reclaim their own voice, tell their story on their own terms, alongside them in support and solidarity. That's the biblical model we should be following.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 20:31

Yeah. And that comes through in the Mosaic Law with the passages on what is supposed to happen when a woman is attacked. She's supposed to use her voice, she's supposed to cry out, she is supposed to let people know what happened. Yeah. It doesn't silence her. She's supposed to tell, but in the story of Bathsheba, she has no avenue, no recourse, because everything that should have protected her got turned against her. Yeah. And unfortunately, that often happens today as well, where the systems um are protecting those in power rather than the survivors. It makes me think of Ephesians 5.11, where it says, have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. So often our cultures get caught up with trying to hide the darkness. We're not going to talk about that. Oh, Pastor So-and-so had a little stumble, but we're not going to talk about it. We don't expose the deeds of darkness. We don't bring them into the light so that Jesus can do his good, sanctifying, clarifying, beautifying work that he wants to do. We don't bring darkness to light to ruin people, although their darkness might have that consequence, and often it should have consequences, but that's not our goal. Yeah. Darkness needs to be brought to light so that Jesus can do his work on behalf of the survivors and on behalf of the perpetrators who need real repentance in all the ways you described David did not repent.

Liz Daye: 22:15

Yeah. Not even just that, but our congregants and people who are consuming Christian content and reading books and listening to podcasts, they deserve to be learning from somebody who is taking the scripture seriously enough to say, you know, if I did the wrong thing, I'm disqualified from ministry. Yeah. Um, because that's what the text says. Um the problem is we keep things in the dark so that we can continue to make money off these spaces that are familiar and marketable, and then they take six months off, and then they come back together, and then we still find a way to blame the woman. Because they ruined this really good guy. Yeah, it was her. She ruined him. It was totally her. And I absolutely heard this in the last year more than once. Oh yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 23:07

Oh yeah. And blame the one who does not have power for the abuse of power by the person in power. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I'm gonna say this because I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding that we all need to know and own is that research has shown that many, many, many, if not most, I don't have the actual stats, but many, many, many, if not most, sexual crimes are not rooted in lust or desire, but they are rooted in power and control.

Liz Daye: 23:41

Yes. So clinically, like rape is not about sexual desire or love or lust at all. It's it that's absolutely correct. It is about power and forcing power against another person.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 23:53

Yes. And so when we, we broadly the golden church or culture or whomever, when we look at male sexual violence against women and are like, oh, it's he just has a lust problem. We'll put him in a position of power. No, he has a power problem that is evidenced against women. Right. But people divorce that and say, oh, he's fit for a position of power. He just has a lust problem. No, he has a power problem that you are intentionally feeding by putting him in a position where he gets more power. It's handing a drunk person another shot of whiskey rather than saying, for your good, for our good, for everybody's good, we're cutting you off.

Liz Daye: 24:36

Yeah. Yeah. This is really important too, because if you survey a bunch of commentaries and you say, like, what was David's sin? And you look at some of these different situations, many male commentators will say, Oh, well, he was lazy. You know, he didn't go to battle like he was supposed to. So this was a consequence of his laziness. Or he was proud. He thought that all the battle stuff wouldn't be a big deal. So pride was his sin that led to his downfall. Um, and we'll use all of these different things leading up from chapter 10 to kind of point to that. Um, and again, that reinforces this idea that, you know, he was just in a mentally bad place and he just made a little mistake and then he fixed it. Yeah. And and the end, no big deal. Don't need to read the next 10 chapters of the book. I'm gonna keep saying, just keep reading, just keep reading the story. Um, but yeah, this is this is a story by and large about David's abuses of power. I would go as far as to say, you know, many commentaries will say, you know, the the overarching theme is Hesed over you know, first and second Samuel. You'll see that a whole lot about Hesed as the driving theme. Well, upwards of 200 times in the entire Samuel story is that verb to take. And it would almost be fair to say one of the most important themes of this story is that we see this power-hungry person, people taking over and over again, and that it's not good. And so if we're just looking at prevalence, if we're looking literarily and and kind of staying within the genre and respecting the genre, respecting the story for what it is, and not trying to like twist it through a Davidic kingdom covenant dispensational, like fun little gymnastics situation. Like we're just like making the story and looking at and looking at what the text is telling us, like this is not good. And it doesn't end well either.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 26:43

And there's a huge element of kind of a divine, I told you so, in the middle of it all. Because when people asked for a king, God said he's gonna take and take and take and take from you, and go after your wives, and go after your daughters, and hurt you. And the people are like, We're cool, let's do it. And God says, All right, and then what God said happened. Yeah, even if, and this is air quotes for those who are listening, the best king in their lineup, because that's how David is frequently viewed. Yeah, even he totally did everything God said that kings would do in warning them of the danger of kings and putting men in those positions of power. Yeah, yeah. But God also shows that men in positions of power need to be held, they need to face what they've done. That's why Nathan came to him. Kings in Egypt and Mesopotamia and the Canaanite kings, they could take one of their soldiers' wives, and they're probably not gonna have a prophet showed up at their door, be like, hey dude, that's wrong. In the pagan nations, if they want it, that's they could. In the God's nation, he comes and he says, I'm sorry, that's not what we need to be doing here. And David does not fully repent, exact fully and completely acknowledging the extent of his harm. But God is not letting him off the hook. Right, right. And we see that in the text. And for survivors, I want them to hear that. Yeah, that your God sees, He sees the harm, the extent of the harm. He's the one that likens rape to death. Yeah, God does that. He's the one that sends a prophet to the most powerful man in the land to say, not cool. Yeah. God does that. And so as we look for God as the hero in the story, and as we shift our conversation to talking to survivors, how do we process this for ourselves? Seeing God is the one who cares about Bathsheba's heart, who cares about our hearts is essential.

Liz Daye: 29:04

Yeah. I think it really speaks to, you know, who are we prioritizing in our views and in our pulpits? Um, are we prioritizing the comfortability of, you know, the elders, the pastors? Are we prioritizing the most vulnerable in our midst? And I think that, you know, if we look at even just the words of Jesus over and over again, you'll see that phrase repeated, the last will be first, um, repeated over and over again. We should, whether we're teaching, preaching, teaching a seminary class, um, be prioritizing the voices of the most vulnerable in our midst, full stop every time every chance that we get, because that's always an opportunity for us to say, this is what God's heart looks like. God's heart is for people to feel safe and loved and cared for and supported by God's people. Like that's the mission and purpose of the church is to become alongsiders, to join one another in love and to lift one another up. Um if somebody's already up here at the tippy top, we don't really need to lift them up much higher, right? Like we don't tear people down. That's not what we want to do. And I want to be very clear about that because there will there are some people that say, well, if you start chipping away, then then people are gonna fall. And I don't think God wants any of us to fall, but I also think he wants us to hold one another accountable in a way that's healthy and promotes flourishing and wholeness for everybody. When we fail to do that, people fall through the cracks. Yeah.

unknown: 30:42

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 30:43

And when we assume that God needs a hierarchy. Of power in order for his people to function, we create systems that uphold the people in power and tread on the survivors of abuse. Yeah.

unknown: 30:58

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 30:59

And so we have to cut away the legs that hold up this system that assume we need hierarchy, that assume we shouldn't speak about sins, that we need to cover things rather than bring them to the light, and bring out a proper hermeneutic. And this is something as women, we can do because a lot of us women, we don't have a lot of power in our churches. We're not the pastor. We don't have a lot of voice. And so I know a lot of my listeners are going to be like, okay, all of this is great. I'm a mom with X number of children, or I'm a single woman, or I'm a divorced woman, or I'm a widow, or or all the situations. What can I do? Yeah. How can I make a difference? And Liz, I'm going to want your thoughts on this, but I think we can start by changing the narrative at the grassroots level. We can teach our children or our neighbor kids or our grandkids or the kids we teach in Sunday school a different hermeneutic, a better hermeneutic. We can help them train them that Jesus doesn't run away from our sin. I think my generation, we were taught, you know, you don't want to make God sad. Yeah. Don't sin. You don't want to make God sad. Yeah. And this idea that if you do something bad, God's going to reject you until you like confess and stuff appropriately. Rather than creating a narrative where God sees us sinning and weak, He draws near to us to pull us from that. We can change these narratives in our homes, our communities, our neighborhoods from the ground up. Yeah.

Liz Daye: 32:45

And in the Swing Breath, you know, when we are sinned against, God joins us who sinned against and doesn't leave us alone and doesn't forsake us. Even though there's this grave injustice that we've experienced at the hands of somebody, God sides with us because God loves justice. I think that, you know, it and conversations about sin are so important, especially when we're talking about leadership. But the reality is that hierarchy is always going to harm somebody. It's always built on top of somebody. It's just a matter of who are you willing to build it on top of. And that's why letting it go is actually a really beautiful thing. Um in the in the African Bible commentary, um in this section, Isabella Apollo Fury is talking about how to respond to um to the to the Bathsheba story. And she state she states the church needs to preach a message that helps men and women develop relationships of respect and trust. Make clear that anyone who abuses another has lost a sense of dignity and integrity. The church should clearly and consistently proclaim that true love protects others from all that is harmful. We show our love for God by how we treat others, period. And she has more in there too, and it's really good if you um take a peek at that commentary um right there in that story. But I think, yeah, I mean, asking better questions, leading with curiosity and openness. You know, I've I've taught women's Bible studies before, and they don't know how to ask questions because they weren't taught. And it's not, you know, it's not a shade or anything like that. No, but we were taught to memorize things. We were taught I won so many contests, like respecting scripture for candy and for money and for, you know, good points of being a Christian girl and you know, all the things. But um one thing that can really help us from a grassroots level is freeing one another to ask questions in a healthy way. Say, you know, what does this word really mean? Um what does this phrase really mean? Is talking right here? Isn't it weird that this person didn't say something? Oh, this person did say something. That's really interesting. Like, yeah, play with it, let it have um read like you read any other story.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 35:16

Yeah. Yeah. Really asking those questions and getting into the text. Many women, again, they haven't been trained. They don't know what they don't know. And giving them freedom to ask questions rather than just listen to the person in authority tell them what to think. And giving them freedom to wrestle and to even admit, because again, I come from a background where you're kind of just supposed to be happy and okay. Yep. Um, but giving them freedom to, you know, read the Bathsheba story and be like, this really troubles me.

unknown: 35:52

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 35:52

Why would God have her baby die? Yeah, it's not her fault. Why, why? Why would God do this? What about, you know, God says that because of David's sin against Bathsheba, his wives will be taken from him. So now more women are going to be sexually assaulted. How do we grapple with these questions? Yeah. And encouraging women to not only wrestle, but also encouraging all of us to be willing to sit in ambiguity, which is really hard. We don't like that. We want the answer and we want an application so that we can go home feeling good. Yeah. But passages like this don't allow us to do that.

Liz Daye: 36:37

I'll also say too that so by the time I got to seminary, and I was, you know, reading this, you know, with a seminary professor that loves David very, very, very, very hard. And, you know, his argument was, well, you have to read this whole story through the lens of the Davidic covenant. And if you don't do that, then you know, nothing else matters. Everything else is subservient to the fact that the Davidic covenant happens in chapter seven, according to this, you know, dispensationalist worldview, and that literally nothing else matters. And that's the that's the logic that these men will use to try to say, you don't need to pay attention to that, that's not important, and kind of dismiss it as you'll say that something else is not important. The problem is that God gave us a story so that we would read it. Read the story. And I'd encourage women to read the story like a story, let yourself feel it, like you're reading a novel. Let yourself feel the emotion and the weight and the disruption. Because we all have stories like Bathsheba. We may not be the Bathsheba in the story. Maybe we're the friend that comes alongside. Maybe we're the person next to the person in power that can speak the truth. Um, I forget who it is that calls, you know, those guards that are anonymous, like those um those anonymous prophets. They're like the last line of defense trying to say, hey, David, you're doing the wrong thing right now. They're not even named. Yeah. But they tried. Yeah. We miss that sometimes that there were a lot of opportunities layered in the story for David to not abuse his power against somebody that was supposed to be under his care as a leader. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 38:31

And also to face Go ahead, I'm sorry. No, I was no, go ahead. And also to face that sometimes we're Joab who enables the abuse of power. Yeah. Who willingly is the arm of injustice for the higher power broker to keep our power. Yep. Yeah. And to really wrestle with all the facets of the story and to continue to grow in being trauma informed. I did not grow up trauma-informed. That was not something having massive trauma come through my adult life is the only reason I am somewhat trauma-informed today. And it was partly so traumatic because I was not trauma-informed. I had no way to recognize what was happening in my own life. And but when you can allow yourself to see trauma, which is scary for a lot of people, you start reading scripture differently. Because you start noticing abuse dynamics, you start noticing survivors, you start noticing it and asking the questions and being willing to be uncomfortable in asking those questions.

Liz Daye: 39:46

Yeah. And what that does is that we create this culture of safety and truth telling and restoration. See, when a woman is sexually assaulted in a church, she comes to the hospital, she sees me, right? Yes. Uh-huh. I'm a hospital chaplain. I am blessed that I get to be a woman in that space because so many women are asking for just a woman. They don't want any room while they're going through this really traumatic experience. They're trying to process their faith and this this injustice that they just experienced, right? Yeah. And then we know that more than 50% of those cases, even if they were documented by the hospital, that they're going to be settled in private, uh, that they're going to be silenced in one way or another, and that they're going to be um exiled from their communities of faith that's supposed to be a safe sanctuary for them. So I think we don't really realize how this much it seems like oh, it's just one instance. Oh, it's just one thing that happens. That's what men will say. It's not just one. This sexual assault affects an entire family. It ruins it ruins lives, it's entire communities, and it's somebody abused their power against somebody else. And teaching the whole community how to respect one another, how to love one another like brothers and sisters. That's what the New Testament tells us to do, to have a high view of honoring one another as brothers and sisters. Because I'm the reality is that with a healthy brother-sister relationship, you're your brother's sticking up for you, right? Yeah, yeah. Like that's and we see the the perverted version of that later on in the story, right? With Tamar. God is making it super duper clear that healthy sibling relationships in the church, right? We're one big family in a good way, not in a toxic way. Right, right? Like we we should want to respect one another.

unknown: 41:55

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 41:56

We have to keep one another safe. And you have to say, Don't mess with my sister, don't mess with my brother. Don't mess like because we love and respect one another.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 42:05

Yeah. And safety requires speaking up for those who need it. I know so many. I know I so I know so many Christians who in many ways are full of the Holy Spirit. They're full of the fruit of the Spirit. They are gentle, they are kind, they are long-suffering, they are patient, they are gracious, but they do not have a backbone. They will not speak up against injustice. And they look like your sweet, perfect little Christian.

unknown: 42:36

Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 42:36

And they're let it go. And they're not gonna say anything. And they will continue harm against the victim through silence.

Liz Daye: 42:47

One thing I'll say to that demographic of people, but they're going to think inwardly, well, I'm being individually righteous, right? Like this is my individual-sized righteousness. I'm just worried about me. And it's very helpful to remember that in scripture and in language, righteousness and justice are two sides of the same coin, right? Yes. Amen. Those are always in how we relate to other people. They're not individual character qualities or like moral attributes. They always speak to like how we cultivate shalom in the community, right? Yeah. Because shalom is always God's ideal, right? Sin vandalizes and violates and destroys shalom, God's people because of the resurrection. We practice restoration. That that's what our job is supposed to be. That's what our work is supposed to be. Righteousness looks like treating one another justly. It looks like lifting up people who have experienced injustice and exploitation and harm. We don't get to individualize ourselves out of systems, no communal situations of harm.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 44:00

We don't. We don't. Yeah. And God cares for the vulnerable, and we have to care for the vulnerable all throughout scripture. It is the widow, the orphan, the foreigner, the immigrant, the vulnerable that God says it's the it's the humble, which we often misunderstand humble. Um, I'm thinking of like James and First Peter, God opposes the proud, gives strength to the humble. In Hebrew, the word for humble is the same for poor, it's the same for sick, it's the same for ill. The humble person is the weak, vulnerable, needy person, not the spiritually independent. Independent and not proud person, you know, the gentle, kind person. That's not humility. Yeah. Yeah. Most often when scripture's talking about the humble, it is the poor, it is the needy, it is the broken, it is the traumatized, it is the victim, it is the survivor. Yeah. God opposes the proud, who's like, it's just my individual righteousness that matters. So I don't need to risk my standing in my local church by speaking up. Yep. Because it's not my fault. I'll just keep my nose out of it. I didn't do anything.

Liz Daye: 45:20

Or and sometimes it's self-protective. Sometimes it's I've got to put food on the table. Sometimes it's I really need this job. Sometimes it's I need this thing from this pastor, whatever it is. Um, I need him to sign something for some for school or for some, I need a letter of recommendation. It there are all these practical reasons and all these excuses that we make to say, I'm not going to risk using my voice for someone else. And I would argue that, you know, when it's all said and done, that Matthew 25 passage, you know, draws a really clear distinction between our willingness and our unwillingness, right? Are we willing to choose solidarity with the most vulnerable? Or are we unwilling? Like that's the measuring stick. It's Yep. It is. It's are we gonna go to corrupt or are we going to look for reasons not to? And it's really that simple. Um the same is true here. Like our churches are full of women who've experienced sexual violence, sexual harm, whether they have the language to realize it or not. Yeah. Um empowering one another with safe environments, with good language to be able to speak to sexual assault and violence so that we can name it and prevent it is super important, right? Yeah. Empowering safe women to be a part of that support system. That's important.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 46:52

It's so important. And just recognizing the extent of the problem. Yeah. I was talking to a pastor one day, trying to encourage him on, you know, you churches need to be more trauma-informed. We need to take the trauma women have more seriously than we do. And there are people in your pew that are hugely affected by sermons that are not trauma-informed. And he looked at me and was like, Yeah, but do we want to change how we do everything for one or two people? And when I thought about it later on, I'm like, I don't know that many people in your church. But probably 10 out of 13 women that I can think of off the top of my head have revealed to me, not usually on purpose, I just know what to look for. Yeah. Trauma, massive trauma in their lives. I mean, I'm talking 85 to 90% of the women I talk to reveal trauma to me. And the pastor is like, oh, there's just one or two. No, it's no. We're but often we don't a lot of people just don't realize that. I mean, there's I mean, there's base statistics, and these may be very familiar to our audience, they may not be, but one in four women are sexually assaulted. Now much higher than that are verbally, emotionally, spiritually abused. So if one in four are sexually abused, we're much higher have other forms of abuse. One in six men are sexually abused. I mean, next time you go to church, sit there and count off. I mean, you may not find the actual people, but you can do the mental exercise of one, two, three, four, five, six men. Him. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Think about it. Take it seriously. It will transform the way you view people and it will transform the way ministry is done.

Liz Daye: 48:55

Yeah. And the same along the same line of thinking, you know, 80% of abuse survivors have expressed distrust towards religious institutions following their traumatic experiences. So 80%, and we've already talked about the prevalence of people who've experienced trauma, men and women. Yep. We know that there's this distrust there. We should want to foster communities of trust that's patient love, right? We're not forcing people to feel a certain way. We're going to, you know, make space that's holy and sacred for people to encounter a God that is safe. Theologically, that should be a priority, not just preaching, you know, feel good and smile and tie the end.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 49:44

Like God has your back, go forth.

Liz Daye: 49:48

Yeah. And I mean, and evangelicals are really bad at being sad. Like we just are, we ignore, you know, lamentations and we ignore Ecclesiastes because it makes us uncomfortable, right? And I think even just willing to be with people in the uncomfortability of a traumatic experience without words, um, just being present with people, not trying to fill in the blanks, but just saying, you know, I recognize that you've experienced this harm and I'm not gonna let you go through the aftermath alone. Yeah, that's a big deal.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 50:26

That is a huge deal. Because so much trauma comes not just from the traumatic event, the abuse, so much trauma comes from being alone in the processing. Yeah, we have to have community to process the traumatic events that happen. Yeah, we cannot do it alone. And as a church, it is our responsibility to come alongside.

Liz Daye: 50:53

Yeah. And I think, you know, we do this for like if a family uh has an extreme diagnosis, right? Yes. We recognize that we've got if there's a traumatic birth, right? Or something's going on, we will meal train up, we will recognize the gift cards and do the things. We don't do that when somebody experiences sexual violence to the point that the community is feeling the rupture. One, because it's not appropriate, like you don't just throw a gift card at somebody. Like that's true. That that won't like fix anything, but also we render people into invisibility because we refuse to see them and be with them. So even just making space to re-examine our process for those more palatable traumas and ones that are harder to hold with people. And if it's hard for us to hold with somebody, you know that it's hard for that person to hold by themselves.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 51:51

Wow.

unknown: 51:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 51:55

And recognizing long-term effects of trauma. Yeah. Every time I meet somebody with an autoimmune disease, yeah, I'm immediately like, and I don't always ask because it's not my business, but I'm like, hmm, I am now going to be aware that you may have trauma in your past. Yeah. You may not. Sometimes autoimmune disease happens, but the prevalence of these mysterious whole body illnesses that make not a lot of sense with people who've had trauma is astronomically high. The co-concurrence of those. And so, as a minister, for me, I immediately think you have chronic pain, autoimmune disease, mysterious illness nobody can figure out. I'm going to be aware that there is a high possibility you may have trauma that should you be willing and should God give me the opportunity, I can meet and comfort you in. Yeah. I'm going to be aware that opportunity may present itself someday. I may not force it. Yeah. I have at times one of my best friends, she was telling me her lit litany of diagnosis, and I was like, I love you. Do you have trauma? And she was like, and now we're best friends.

Liz Daye: 53:15

Sometimes we do that. Well, and I mean, at the hospital, everybody has trauma. The hospital's terrific. There I I work from a trauma-informed like framework philosophically because I know that that's like where we are. There's nothing that's like not traumatic about being in the hospital, truly. Right. Yeah. And also, you know, churches are supposed to be hospitals for the hurting. Right? Yeah. We should want people who are spiritually hurting, spiritually broken, spiritually experiencing a death, like you said earlier. We should want to welcome one another with safety and support and care, recognizing their trauma. And that just looks like saying, hey, I know that you are the expert of your experience. I believe you. I honor you. I want you to hear, I want to hear it in your own words. And giving people the space to process without fear, without retribution, uh, without the pressure to put it in a nice little package with a bow on top, and then record them for like a thing that you like put on. Evangelicals are weird, man. Not trying to rush stuff and not trying to use stuff. Just like we're journeying together. We belong to one another. It's that simple.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 54:36

Yeah. And stories like Bathsheba can encourage and force the church to actually face some of these traumas if they are willing to call a spade a spade and say, rape is rape. Yeah. Yeah. Rape is an abusive power. Putting abusive men in power is bad. And all the things that go along it, once you can start admitting that, because scripture reveals it to be true, you can walk with survivors that are sitting next to you in the pew. They are. You may not know that. You may not be willing to see. I'd love to look at the pastors I've had conversations with and be like, of course, you don't know how many women have trauma in your church. You're not trauma-informed, and you're a dude. The second one is not your fault. But they're not going to talk to you. They're going to talk to me.

Liz Daye: 55:33

And part of that too is a willingness to say, you know, I really like these three or four dudes in power. Like, I'm going to protect them with my whole heart. Or being willing to say, hey, we're going to empower more people. We're going to empower survivors into leadership.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 55:49

Are we hurting power or are we empowering? Right.

Liz Daye: 55:55

Are we willing to set aside power? Are we willing to say, yeah, like we're going to put a time limit on your eldership? We're going to rotate. No, like. Yeah. Things like that.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 56:09

Most churches I've been a part of hoard power rather than share power. Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Daye: 56:15

God is very much a power sharer. That's a lot of my work in my book that's coming out next year. It's talking about how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit don't hoard power, right? They are expert power sharers, right? I love that. Not just within the Trinity, but within the church too. They're always empowering, you know, people as co-creators and co-laborers. Like that's this come alongside activity. This is, you know, what the life of God is like and what the church should be like. So yeah, it's like it's all throughout scripture. We're we we want this for one another. We want goodness and flourishing and wholeness for one another. And God cares about that.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 56:56

He cares about our hearts. Yeah. Well, Liz, thank you so much for coming and having this discussion. Briefly, again, in your own words, tell us what your two books that are coming out are, what they are, brief synopsis of what they're about, and when our listeners can find them.

Liz Daye: 57:16

Oh gosh. Okay. So Interwoven Discipleship comes out next year with Nav Press. That is a book about the Trinity and discipleship. Um talking about how having better language for better doctrine can help us connect some of these dots with discipleship and how do we fear for one another and imagine justice and things like that. I love that. Then we have Decentering David is coming out in 2027. I'm co-authoring that with Kate Boyd and Brazos Press is publishing. And again, we want to tell a truer story that lets God be the center of God's own story. Let's God be the main character, the protagonist, the good guy, the hero. Right. And listen to the survivors, listen to David's victims, and just tell a truer story that avoids hero worship in favor of something that can really help the church. Yeah.

unknown: 58:14

Yeah.

Liz Daye: 58:14

I forget the other questions.

Jessica LM Jenkins: 58:15

But yeah, those two are coming out. Yeah. That's that was perfect. Yes. Well, thank you, Liz. I so appreciate having you. This has been such a good conversation, just wrestling with how do we process the story of Bathsheba? How do we process the church's response and where do we move forward? For those of you who are listening, this is the second episode in the miniseries on Bathsheba. We will be continuing talking about Bathsheba and Solomon later on. So we're going to do a couple episodes early, and then we're going to to when she's Queen Mother, which is a pretty powerful role. And so we'll get there in a bit. But thank you again, Liz. It was absolutely great to have you here and everyone else. I can't wait to talk to you next time.